J. Phil Thien's Projects

Well, FWIW, the baffle that I took out of the 55 gallon separator can no longer work there. I cut it down to fit the ring on the HF DC.

Looking at the inside of the PSI unit you attached pics of it looks like it has / had some sort of spiral ramp (?) instead of a cone below the filter. Looks like you cut it out in favor of the wooden ceiling / tube arrangement.

MY intended LONG TERM application is going to be a 5' main with drops to my exisitng 4" blast gates instead of splitting to 2 4" mains. I am thinking about using a 5" blast gate to block off the run of the main that goes to the end of the shop, OR the run that goes overhead so I can basically reduce the volume being pulled against.

The mounting holes for the baffle need to be figured out. Pretty sure I can't use the ones I had originally in the drum baffle as they are too close together. Planning on filling the holes with putty and sanding smooth. Attachment will be 1/4 - 20 threaded rod, washers, and nuts / nylock nuts arrangement. Need to figure out how to orient the baffle with the neutral vane. I am going to assume the start of the full width is just before the opening of the neutral vane where it dumps so that the air / dust rides along the wide part enough before it drops in to the drop slot.

Also, drop slot was made 1.5" wide. should it be wider since this is in a dust collector arrangement and not a shop vac?

Reviewing your numbers, and the hit you took on airflow, is not all that reassuring. Unfortunately my anemometer doesn't read fast enough air speed to be useful for anything at the impeller on the DC.  I do know that a 30% drop after 10' of 5" ducting however is substantial enough to give me pause.

HOWEVER, I looked at how yours was set up, and yes the, ceiling or whatever you called it, with the 6 or 8" neck would likely serve to provide a restriction.

I know the neutral vane puts everything in the ring under the cone, and forces it to spin around the outside of the ring, kind of a weird sound with shavings actually, I know the opening in the ring is something like 12", maybe a little less,..

I do expect SOME restriction due to the baffle as it is a baffle after all, but I am not expecting to see a LOT of restriction...

I am unsure about that Penn State unit you measured against though, does it lack any sort of cone, or inside anything in the ring? That would explain a LOT of the restriction right there...

I might just have to soucre up 10' of 5" and see if I can't measure pre and post baffle airflow with the cone. I REALY want to know...

Updated info here.

After further digging, and putting a bit of trust into Phil on the matter, although I wish that he could link the tests / articles but  apparently Fine Woodworking did a test of the Thien Baffle IN the ring vs. external, and apparently the in ring configuration produced reportedly negligible impact to airflow into and through the DC, which is what I am aiming for. So I am thinking about going for the separator in the ring and calling it good...

Quote from: phil (admin) on May 03, 2014, 07:00:18 AM
The losses from a baffle INSIDE the DC's ring are substantially lower than those of a top-hat separator.  Fine Woodworking's test indicated they saw little initial loss from adding the baffle to a Jet dust collector.

It is probably substantially easier to add a baffle to your existing DC ring than building a top-hat, as well.

The only advantage to the top hat really is that it prevents larger chunks of wood or screws or whatever from hitting your blower wheel.  But the blower wheels inside single stage DC's are designed with this possibility in mind.

@phil

I am guessing you have been AFK for a bit. I sure could have used this reassurance...

I have the baffle taken out of my 55 gallon unit and have been straddling the precipice on whether to cut it down for my DCs ring, not sure who it was, but the member that had the Plumb Crazy HF DC with a neutral vane and a baffle had the idea, but I never saw test results.

My main goals here are...

#1. Keep my airflow high in order to insure dust, shavings, and chips keep moving to the collector.
#2. Keep the dust, shavings, and chips away from the filter as much as possible to prevent clogging.
#3. Reduce the shop footprint of the collector and any separator. If they consume the same space, that is ideal. Where my 55 gallon unit was now has my roller stands, and one of my shop stools.
#4. Oddly enough, I want a clear dust vessel that I can view at a glance. Clear plastic bags are good by me. And my city recycler will take sawdust in plastic bags. I think that stuff goes to the paper mill...

I am MORE than willing to put my 55 gallon drum separator back together and use it for this test. I need data though.

My issue is this. My anemometer will only measure up to 69mph. so at the inlet of my DC, I cannot actually measure airflow, I exceed maximum measureable speed.

I have seen more than a few tests showing a Thien baffe, notably the top hat installs, but I assume others are similar, reduce airflow by somewhere around 45%.

I am wondering if the same is true with a baffle in the separator ring of the dust collector itself (post motor).

I can build and install the separator, however I have no means of measuring it if the air speed exceeds 69mph, which I expect it will / should.

What I am wondering, is has anyone done a comparison from pre, to post in ring baffle install, OR is there anyone in Houston Metro on here, that is interested in this data, that has an anemometer that can read much higher wind speeds than my puny one can that would be willing ot loan it to me or work with me to get this data?

I'd REALLY rather not buy another anemometer for this one data point. And I am pretty sure I will be able to get wind speeds at my duct ports with my existing one so no issues there...

I am going to have to ask Phil for forgiveness here, at least for the time being. The airflow impact of my 55 gallon drum separator really got my attention, so at least for now, I am leaving the baffle out, and going instead with a neutral vane.

So far the airflow is amazingly better, but no idea about the separation.

I fail to recall the members HF DC that had the Neutral Vane here AND a Thien separator IN the DC allowing it to drop and not scrub from the lower bag, I would assume the Neutral vane does nothing about preventing scrubbing... But if I blow down the filter and drop the bag before it gets overly filled up I should be golden...

But the project panel purchased for the baffle is here, and will remain at the ready should the need arise / the vane not work as I am hoping...

On that trash can separator. from the pics, it is hard to tell, but it looks like the inlet is too far into the 120 deg wide spot. It should dump just when the wide spot starts...

On the subject of HF DC mods. I too have the 2HP Central Machinery dust collector. Everyone knows the drill on these as far as bang for the buck goes. I have the Wynn 35a as well, but mine is the older Spun Bond that you could wash out with a garden hose and let dry... Never done that, always blown it down. I believe MERV 15 with 99.99% at .5 microns. Hopefully by now everyone has gotten the message, ditch the cloth bag, get a quality cartridge filter.

I was hunting for the apparently unobtainable Rikon impeller for years, when I stumbled upon folks starting to swap in Wen 3403 impellers. Part number 3403-22 Turbofan.

I have yet to upgrade my inlet as my ductwork is still 5" split to 2 4" lines, but I will be upgrading in the new year to 6" using a Hydrofarm AC6F 6" fan flange from Amazon. Needs some mount hole dimpling and drilling but aside from that, direct fit...  And it's green. Not a perfect match for my unit, but close enough.

I'm in a quandry at this point. The anemometer I got from Amazon won't read high enough to read the air speed at the DC inlet.  Most likely send this back and order one with a higher read capacity...

Okay no answers readily found. So I went ahead and ordered an anemometer. I will take my own measurements and do the math.  Will make a video and post the results.

I am digging into this very question. External separators are known to cause CFM drop.  Your DC is outfitted with I believe a 5" inlet. I would be looking into an in the inlet ring separator, either a Thien baffle, or a Neutral Vane, if not both.

I know the Thien baffle does radically reduce the amount of fine dust that get to the filter and in turn cause the filter to cake up.

You will also benefit significantly by replacing the bag type filter with a cartridge filter. I believe Grizzly at least used to offer a nice .5 micron nano filter with a built in beater to help clean it out...

I've been using a Thien separator for years, literally well over a decade now. And only recently came across some few youtube tests / demos showing CFM drop using most notably top hat style Thien separators being more extreme compared to say the CFM drop going through a commercially built cyclone separator like a Super Dust Deputy, and ALL of the tests are on what I would call pre impeller installs.

I have seen nothing comparing to say Neutral Vanes.

Since the whole point of these builds and adds has been to improve / maintain CFM / dust collection. Has anyone been able to do actual airflow measurements when fitted with the various separator styles?

Don't get me wrong, I love the Thien separator as it is EXTREMELY effective at separation, and maintaining airflow over the long term. I am just wondering if it is the best option, and even if, are there things we can do, maybe easing corners with a router bit for example, to facilitate airflow without allowing excessive dust blowby.

So update for today:

Wen impeller arrived today. The entire job of swapping the HF impeller to the Wen unit took all of 30 minutes, so bonus points for being easy. This also assumes you know how to use a 3 jaw puller.

The new impeller does BARELY fit into the housing though. I mean tight fit city!

The difference in airflow is noticeable, and quite large, not a surprise. The OE impeller is tiny by comparison. Not sure what Harbor Freight was thinking by using the impeller they did.

Next step is to remove / disassemble the drum separator, and verify, although I doubt it, but verify if it will fit the separator ring. Worth checking to save some labor but like I said, seriously doubt it...

While I am at it, planning on using an angle guage to get the angle for the dowels.

Anxious to get this all done as this will free up a mess of space that I badly need.

Quote from: WoodCzar on April 09, 2020, 03:12:27 PM
Yeah, with all this social distancing, I finally can dedicate some time to set up a small shop.

Right now, I plan on using Phil`s plans here: http://www.jpthien.com/cy.htm  Identical, with the 45 degree elbows top and bottom, but everything 4 inch. Only thing I don`t like about it is the inside of the garbage can is not smooth. Wonder if it is an issue in anyway?

Anyway, my duct runs are relatively short. I`m going to keep the HF rig, motor side to my wall, short flex run to the can separator, short flex to a 45 degree fitting connected to my main trunk mounted same height as the separator, which will be only 8 ft or so. Only two trunks off the main to connect a table saw, and a miter saw which will adapt to a band saw and a sander.

Not using the HF bag either. Going the extra mile for the Wynn filter.

I just hope I`m not doing too much trial and error.

Good luck. Post findings. .............. Peace

I know the topic is a bit on the old side, but wanted to answer your question. Assuming you are using one of those galvanized trash cans. They work well, Not sure why, but they do. I have my 2.5" separator based off of one of them.  Not saying one way or another, but I did a separate drum based separator and I am now working on one for the separator ring in the DC itself to save space and hopefully reduce / eliniate any restriction. Might be something worth looking into.

If you see my post on lumberjocks, but long story short. I hit a pretty severe rough patch. Coming back from it now...  Trying to get things going the right way again...

Since I can't find my post, and I am coming back after a few years away due to life events I would rather not go into, I figure it would help to re-intruduce myself.

I am a home DIY / Woodworking hobbyist with a garage workshop in Galveston County Texas. I dove headlong into building the shop on a budget with the blessing of my beautiful bride... And I am SOOOOO glad I did it when I did, man have prices shot up!

I'm the guy that wrote the sticky thread "Heres the plans" for building your own Thein separator. And am a Youtuber, one of my more popular videos is an explanation of how the Thien baffle works. At least to the best of my ability...

I digress.

I started with Thien separators with a 2.5" shop vac based system, including a full tubing setup. It worked, but not well enough. The baffle / separator was great, the vac wasn't even close to strong enough.

I upgraded to a Harbor Freight 2HP DC with a Wynn 35a .5 micron washable filter, and a 55 gallon side inlet separator, using a 5" x 4x4 splitter with 2 4" lines...

I am building a smaller shed workshop, with max SQ Footage of 200 due to permit restrictions for sheds in my town.  Thus I am downsizing.

The 2.5" shop vac version is still around, but only really used for drywall work in the house. I am doing a project to do an internal separator and impeller upgrade to the HF DC, this way I keep the dust collection footprint in the smaller shop down.

My family suffered some big losses several years back due to a large number of deaths of friends and family, so I stepped back from a lot of my woodworking forum activity.

We are back on our feet more or less, and I am trying to get back to my prior hopefully helpful input.

I look forward to doing all I can to promote Phils baffle design. This is a brilliant idea, and so very easy to deploy that anyone could do it!