J. Phil Thien's Projects

Here is a link ( http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1054.msg5677#msg5677 ) to my setup which uses a Grizzly 1029z dust collector. There are a series of photos attached and the last one is the completed setup. I used the ring from the DC for the separator. It has been working well as I capture a large amount of fines in the trash can. I know some are getting by (which is inevitable) by what collects in the dust box below the filter when I back blow the filter. I don't know what effect the tapered ring in the DC ring has on the separation process but it don't think it is harming it in any way. At best it may be forcing more of the fines and larger items to the perimeter of the ring and into the drop slot.

All duct work out to the machines is 5" spiral wound pipe. At each machine there is a 5" blast gate and then reduces to 4" for connection to the machine. Further reduction is done from there for smaller ports. The only issue I have encountered when using a small port tool is I have to open another BG part way or else the trash can will collapse and result in loss of suction and in one cause dust started everywhere.

This link ( http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1402.msg8446#msg8446 ) takes you to my post on the automation I have added, if interested.

Here are a couple videos that show the GC and DCC in operation. When the gate number is backlit the BG is open. On the GC you will see the amps the tool is drawing and then when the tool shuts off the off delay countdown timer will start. Once it goes to zero there will be a delay before the gate closes (this is the gate close delay at the DC). On the DCC you will see the status backlit and once the off command is received the delay off countdown timer will start. The small number counting down under the gate number is the delay before the gate close command is sent to the GC (this allows the DC time to wind down and let the gate close).

@retired2 LOL, probably not as it has been assembled over the last few years. Thanks for the compliment. It has been an interesting project and am happy with how it has turned out.

@retired2 - I think I have the photo problem fixed.

Sorry for the late response to the bell mouth. I purchased it online and don't recall the site. It should be easily found. I will say for the one I got that the flange seemed large and after using it a bit I decided to trim it down some. I was concerned that the flange extended to close to the outside of the drum and would allow dust to be drawn to the outlet. If you read in some of the post here it seems that you probably don't need much of a bell mouth in order to improve air flow performance.

While there are several postings about methods to start a DC remotely, this posting covers my implementation of the system I created to fully automate the operation when a connected tool is turned on.

A little background
When I built my separator (http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1054.msg5839#msg5839) I implemented a current sensing relay to start the DC when current was detected on 1 of 2 circuits (120V used for router and other tools and 220V for table saw). While this worked well it still required to be sure the blast gates (BG) are properly configured and fell short when using the CSMS as it caused the DC to cycle frequently (not the best for 2 HP motors) (@retired2 solved this by using a current sensing relay with an off delay timer). I decided to look around and see what options there were to fully automate the operation (open the BG and start the DC) by simply turning on the tool. After a bit of searching it was apparent the commercially available options were not reasonably priced and geared toward commercial operations. I then started working on an idea to use the current sensing relay, interposing relays and pneumatics to operate the BG and DC when a tool turned on. I posted a diagram on this (http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1179.0). This started to get quite involved wiring wise and felt a bit antiquated. I refined the idea by using a microcontroller instead of relays. I also decided that the pneumatics were not as cost effective as I had desired and lacked granular control of the gate position. This led me to use a servo (like in RC planes) which I had seen in an online video. This idea of one microcontroller still required a bit of wiring and a considerable amount of i/o for one microcontroller. I then looked at using wifi with the microcontroller and decided that a microcontroller at the DC and the BG would work using wifi to communicate with each other. This would also make wiring easy as the microcontroller would be close to the DC or BG and also required minimum I/O for each. I proceeded to build a prototype for testing and soon realized that the servo operation was not consistent, so I switched to a stepper motor. A slight redesign of the prototype with this change and the subsequent testing went well so I proceeded with this idea.

System design
The system consists of Dust Collector Controller (DCC), Gate Controller (GC) and Gate Controller Extender (GCE). The DCC and GC use a ATmega2560 microcontroller (Arduino) with a wifi interface to allow communications between the GCs and DCC. The DCC is mounted on the DC and connects to a power relay that is used to turn the DC on/off. The GC and stepper motor are mounted on a bracket attached to the BG. On the other side of this bracket is an electrical box with an outlet and a current sensor. This creates a fully contained BG with a GC (or GCE) to control the BG and the outlet for the tool to be associated with this BG. Details for each of the components is given below.

Dust Collector Controller (DCC)
The DCC receives commands from the GC when to turn on and off the DC. The on command is immediate while the off command is delayed based on the delay interval assigned to the BG that requested the DC to turn off. This delay allows the DC to continue to run while the tool cycles on/off in short intervals (i.e. CSMS operation). The DCC also reads amps, differential pressure and records run time. The differential pressure (DP) reading will be used (waiting on new DP sensor as the one I have Is not working) to open a relief gate (preassigned to a GC, will be the table saw BG) when high DP is sensed. Once this happens the DCC will send an open BG command to the appropriate GC. The BG will be opened in small increments until the DP drops below the threshold and will remain open till the DC is turned off. This is being done to prevent collapsing the dust collection bin when using a tool with a small port. The DCC is programmed to handle 8 BGs but could be expanded to handle more as there is still quite a bit of memory and processor time available for additional BGs.



Gate Controller (GC)
The GC uses a current sensor to monitor the amps on the circuit the tool is plugged in to. Once the amps go above a preset threshold the GC sends an on command to the DCC and actuates the stepper motor to open the BG associated with that circuit/tool. When the amps drop below the threshold the GC sends an off command with the off-delay interval to the DCC. The GC then waits for the DCC to send back a message to close the BG which happens after the DCC turns off once the delay has expired. If the tool starts again before the delay expires then the GC sends an on command to the DCC which keeps the DC on and resets the delay timer. A GC can manage 1 to 3 BGs; one attached to the GC and each of the other two are attached to a GCE. The GC is pretty much maxxed out at 3 BGs due to the processing required and I/O available.



Gate Control Extender (GCE)
The GCE is simply a physical extension of the current sensor and stepper motor connections on the GC through a ten-conductor interconnect cable. This allows the wiring for a BG to be kept short and only needing one cable back to the GC. All processing is done by the connected GC.



Here are a few pics showing the installation in the shop.










I have been using this now for several weeks and all is working well. I think it will hold up over time as one of tests I ran was to cycle a BG (open, wait 15 seconds, close, wait 5 seconds, repeat) for 8 hours with no failures and no missed steps. The cycle time from closed to fully open is under 0.7 seconds (for 5? BG). This happens while the DC is coming up to full speed so no delay in operation. The only issue I found was that the BG would not fully close if the close command was issued at the same time the DC was turned off. I determined that there was too much drag on the BG slide as it closed and the servo was not strong enough to overcome the drag. I solved this by adding a delay between the DC turning off and the time the gate close command is sent. This allows the DC time to wind down and thus not create as much drag on the BG slide. Once I get the DP sensor working I may find that the relief BG stepper motor may need to be stronger to overcome the drag imposed on the BG slide in a high DP situation.

Have you looked at my build and others like it. While my DC was not a HF it was of the same design and I used the tangential drum to create the separator. It works well and have been very pleased with the results. Here is a link to my build. http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1054.0

If you look at the original design the drop slot is along the outside edge to allow the dust to drop into the bin below. Placing the drop slot away from the edge will result in the dust collecting along the top of the baffle plate and not falling into the bin. Most likely it will end up being sucked up by the outlet of the separator. if you move the drop slot to the outside edge then the handles are in the way and will create turbulence that again will decrease the effectiveness of the separator. I don't know if it might be possible to cut away the handles on the inside as this might result in a hole in the can which you would need to patch. This might still cause too much turbulence. The last thing to look at is the area below the drop slot. This should also be at least flush with the outside edge of the drop slot or further out. If you move the drop slot to the outside edge of the can with the baffle resting on the ridge then the ridge below the slot could also result in a drop in efficiency as it wouldn't allow the dust to freely drop into the can. There are several on this site that have used the same can and they may be able to give you a better idea on how to best setup the separator. I used the standard gray Brute can for my setup with the separator on top and it works well.

In addition to the comments above I would look at a different transition piece. Your current transition piece looks more like an adapter in that it mates a round fitting with a square fitting and has no real transition between the two. I would look at the transition fitting on Retired2's build (link below) as an example. Since you have a small diameter you will want to move as much of the flow to the outer wall of the separator as possible to keep it away from the outlet pipe. I would consider a transition piece with the rectangle being the height of your separator with a width that would have an area equal to the round inlet area.  Good luck.

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=563.msg3024#msg3024

I am using a 32 gallon trash can and how fast it fills will depend on what you are doing. Table saw work not so fast but other tasks creating larger chips fills a bit faster. I am able to go quite awhile without having to empty the can. I typically try to empty it when it is half full simply because it is easier to handle. Large can full of saw dust can get a bit on the heavy side more cumbersome to empty into a trash bag. You noted that you were limited on space which is the same issue I had. The mechanism I created takes a bit more to build but it fits within 3-1/2" so is fairly compact. A socket adapter on the cordless driver makes it quick and easy to lower and raise. The locator ring on the base makes lining up the trash can really easy.

Here is the lift mechanism I used for my setup. The overall setup is similar to yours in that the blower is suspended above the top hat. You can adjust the size and amount of lift fairly easily. It should lift a 55 gallon drum easily. You may need to use a fine thread rod to improve the lift power. I use this to lift a 30 gallon trash can and it does so easily and creates enough holding pressure to seal the can to the bottom of the top hat.

Any questions, let me know.

Here are two schematics. The first does not require a micro-switch on the blast gate to turn on the DC. The second uses the micro-switch system to start the DC. All are welcome to use at your own risk. If you have any questions please let me know.

Here are a few links to videos on the blast gate actuation. A quick search for automated blast gates will find a number of videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60PuJGupZOo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kRYGxGNrfk

Retired2, you are on the right track to use a current sensor on each circuit that runs a machine. The sensor will need to trip a DPST (DPDT) relay. One set of contacts will go to trigger the DC and the other set of contacts will trigger the mechanism for the blast gate. The set of contacts on each DPDT relay that triggers the DC are wired in parallel so it doesn't matter which machine is turned on it will trigger the DC. If you add the delay off then you get the DC running after the machine is off to clear the line or keep it from cycling off if starting another machine (or multiple cuts on CMS). Hope this makes sense. If I get time in the next few days I will try to draw up a schematic.

Retired2, Nice job and sounds like it will work for a long time. I have looked at adding a time off delay to the auto-start setup I am using to minimize the cycling of the motor when using tools like the CSMS and router. I do have an override switch I can use to keep the unit running as long as I remember to use it. As mentioned in another post I am working towards full auto design (start of the DC and opening of the appropriate blast gate with pneumatics) when a tool is started. I saw where you mentioned that it sounded complicated but I like to tinker with stuff so gives me a challenge between projects.

JonWho?, You might be able to use a current sensing relay with delay off to sense when the DC is running and then opening the blast gate. The trick will be to know which BG to open which you might be able to use the wiring associated with the microswitch to complete the circuit to the actuator for the BG. Just a thought.

I am using a Grizzly 2HP DC and decided on 5" duct. I did quite a bit of research and based on retired2's experience and articles mentioned above (I was able to read the AW article before the link stopped working) and decided 5" was the way to go. Fortunately, I have a supplier within a reasonable drive of where I live and was able to get the duct work at a reasonable price. I did use spiral wound pipe which was a lit bit more expensive than the snap lock but the fittings were very cheap from this supplier (90 elbow was $10). As retired2 mentions above, most DCs tested in the article will not generate adequate airflow on 6" pipe and 4" could be too restrictive.

I also wired up a automatic start so that turning on the TS or Router will auto start the DC. It also has an override switch for use with the other tools in the shop. I only have to remember to open blast gates. I plan on expanding the auto start to other tools and look to use pneumatics to automatically open/close the blast gates. The link below is the wiring diagram and parts list for the auto start switch. If you are not comfortable working with electricity and wiring in panels then this may not be for you.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2qSB--NoZIIC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=dust+collector+relay&source=web&ots=1z7x8dB_JC&sig=3Biq-UUTn7x_uOPJXjYJph0DZgc#v=onepage&q&f=false

My DC setup can be seen at this posting.

http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=1054.msg5701#msg5701