Finally got around to building a lid, after coming to the conclusion that the LV lid just wasn't doing an adequate job. As shop space is at a premium I stacked the vac above the can, with 2" PVC pipe connecting the lid to the vac.
(http://billw.smugmug.com/photos/412633839_qEefp-S.jpg)
Here's the lid. The inlet port is a 2" "street" elbow that press fits nicely into a 2-1/4" hole. The outlet port is a standard 2" elbow with a bit of pipe to extend below the lid per Phil's design.
(http://billw.smugmug.com/photos/412633773_pSpQG-S.jpg)
And here's details of the connection to the vac.
(http://billw.smugmug.com/photos/412633787_47MqD-S.jpg)
This is the end that connects to the vac.
(http://billw.smugmug.com/photos/412633806_WFhfS-S.jpg)
It works a treat! By my unscientific test works much better than the LV cyclone lid.
More and larger pix here:
http://billw.smugmug.com/gallery/6116486_jmn5N/1/412633806_WFhfS (http://billw.smugmug.com/gallery/6116486_jmn5N/1/412633806_WFhfS)
And a few more details in my post at the Canadian Workworking Forum:
http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?p=190090#post190090 (http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/showthread.php?p=190090#post190090)
-- Bill
Quote from: billw on November 08, 2008, 03:03:00 PM
Finally got around to building a lid, after coming to the conclusion that the LV lid just wasn't doing an adequate job. As shop space is at a premium I stacked the vac above the can, with 2" PVC pipe connecting the lid to the vac.
(http://billw.smugmug.com/photos/412633839_qEefp-S.jpg)
That's a very nice looking cart. Looks pretty simple. Just 2x4s and plywood right? Is that just butt jointed? And is that stiff enough to keep from skewing?
Quote from: dbhost on November 12, 2008, 01:57:05 PM
That's a very nice looking cart. Looks pretty simple. Just 2x4s and plywood right? Is that just butt jointed? And is that stiff enough to keep from skewing?
2x3's, actually. They're usually straighter! Yes, just butt joints, two screws into the end of each 2x3. The plywood bits are 24" square. I was concerned about skewing, but it's good enough. The vac is pretty light weight. If the cart needed stiffening I'd just screw a couple of small hardboard panels onto the sides, or maybe corner braces -- whatever works. It doesn't have to be pretty, as long as I can get the can out.
-- Bill
It would appear I have a project this weekend. Thanks for the idea!
I finished my lid last week and built a stand to stack the system similar to the one built by billw. I'm still using the flexible hose that came with my Rigid Shop vac between the vac and the separator. I'd like to replace the 7' hose with something similar to the pics above. I probably could have built the stand about 6" shorter than I did, but since I put frame around the platforms, they may be strong enough to add a shelf or drawer for additional storage I built the separator lid pretty close to the one described by Phil. I haven't extended the center port below the lid yet, but it seems to be working well. I made a few cuts on my TS and the dust had collect around the bottom edge of my 31 gal. garbage can and there was no detectable dust in the vac. The center of the bottom of the garbage can was nearly free of dust. That made me conclude that there was a cyclone type air movement set up below the baffle. Has anyone compare the results with the center port extended to the results without the extension?
Quote from: Bill_In_Alabama on November 16, 2008, 08:08:52 PM
Has anyone compare the results with the center port extended to the results without the extension?
Yes. ;D
The difference in small, but significant.
By extending the outlet tube, we're able to pull the very cleanest air from the center of the cyclone action.
Quote from: Bill_In_Alabama on November 16, 2008, 08:08:52 PM
I finished my lid last week and built a stand to stack the system similar to the one built by billw. I'm still using the flexible hose that came with my Rigid Shop vac between the vac and the separator. I'd like to replace the 7' hose with something similar to the pics above
Just my humble little opinion here, but the short radius 90 bill uses, looks like it would make for some pretty big CFM drops, which should be avoided with a Shop Vac based system, keep your hose and make the curve long and gentle... I like the idea of keeping things neat and tight in as well, but it just looks like there would be a functional impact is all...
Quote. I probably could have built the stand about 6" shorter than I did, but since I put frame around the platforms, they may be strong enough to add a shelf or drawer for additional storage I built the separator lid pretty close to the one described by Phil. I haven't extended the center port below the lid yet, but it seems to be working well. I made a few cuts on my TS and the dust had collect around the bottom edge of my 31 gal. garbage can and there was no detectable dust in the vac. The center of the bottom of the garbage can was nearly free of dust. That made me conclude that there was a cyclone type air movement set up below the baffle. Has anyone compare the results with the center port extended to the results without the extension?
I had not tried without the center tube, but with the center tube, it's pretty amazing. I use a 20 gallon trash can, and with a freshly emptied vac, and a freshly cleaned filter, I vacuumed up probably 10 gallons of various material from shop dust to gunk behind the workbench and the shop floor, and I did get a little dusting on the filter, and just a light dusting on the inside plastics of the vac tub...
I have since vacuumed out a VERY full firebox (cold) from my New Braunfels Smoker Bandera Smoker (The big competition size smoker), twice. (Did some serious BBQ last weekend). The filter is now dust coated, but there was VERY little ash in the vac intself, 99% ish stayed in the trash can...
I can tell you for sure, that I have some modifications to do to my tools to improve dust collection. The open bottom on my table saw makes dust collection a joke. I seem to get the fines, but the chunky bits just blow by the dust hood. And outside of the router table, I am not sure how to to dust collection from the router...
I spent the weekend on other shop projects, and LOML projects involving a hot glue gun and floral stuff.
What kind of table saw? I have a delta contractor style, and I just put a piece of 1/4 ply across the bottom. Dust port on the back on another piece of 1/4 with a cutout for the belt and motor mount. There's a LOT of dust inside the "cabinet" still, but not in the air!! I can send pics if you want. Also made a router table recently. Let us know whacha got, maybe we can help rig it up better.
Current, and problematic TS is a Ryobi BTS21, Have a Ryobi BT3100 coming, and I know how to close those off for better DC... The fine folks at BT3Central clued me in..
Quote from: dbhost on November 17, 2008, 10:06:20 AM
Just my humble little opinion here, but the short radius 90 bill uses, looks like it would make for some pretty big CFM drops, which should be avoided with a Shop Vac based system, keep your hose and make the curve long and gentle... I like the idea of keeping things neat and tight in as well, but it just looks like there would be a functional impact is all...
Yeah, I thought of that. It's hard to say without testing with an anemometer what works better. The long hose with the ribbing is likely to induce turbulence (?) in the hose. The shorter pipe has sharper bends. Also the 1 1/2" joiner creates a bottleneck right at the inlet to the vac. I just got tired of that long hose flapping around and getting in the way!
I may try a second version of the outlet tube using 45 degree elbows, and instead of a joiner to connect to the vac, try to sand/file down the 2" PVC to fit.
For now, though, it works sooo much better than the LV cyclone lid I think I'll leave it alone for a while and work on some "real" shop projects.
-- Bill
Why not rotate the shop vac 90 degrees so that the outlet from the baffle separator goes straight into the inlet for the shop vac ... would just need to build a cradle to hold the shopvac on its side.
Quote from: CheapScotsman on November 22, 2008, 02:09:49 PM
Why not rotate the shop vac 90 degrees so that the outlet from the baffle separator goes straight into the inlet for the shop vac ... would just need to build a cradle to hold the shopvac on its side.
Brilliant! That's thinking outside the box, for sure. I'll keep that in mind for version 2 of my lid.
The only (small) problem is that it makes emptying the trash a bit harder - you have to take the vac off the top shelf.
-- Bill
True but you would eliminate two sharp 90s and you should see a good increase in CFM/suction.
Quote from: billw on November 22, 2008, 08:27:44 AM
Quote from: dbhost on November 17, 2008, 10:06:20 AM
Just my humble little opinion here, but the short radius 90 bill uses, looks like it would make for some pretty big CFM drops, which should be avoided with a Shop Vac based system, keep your hose and make the curve long and gentle... I like the idea of keeping things neat and tight in as well, but it just looks like there would be a functional impact is all...
Yeah, I thought of that. It's hard to say without testing with an anemometer what works better. The long hose with the ribbing is likely to induce turbulence (?) in the hose. The shorter pipe has sharper bends. Also the 1 1/2" joiner creates a bottleneck right at the inlet to the vac. I just got tired of that long hose flapping around and getting in the way!
I may try a second version of the outlet tube using 45 degree elbows, and instead of a joiner to connect to the vac, try to sand/file down the 2" PVC to fit.
For now, though, it works sooo much better than the LV cyclone lid I think I'll leave it alone for a while and work on some "real" shop projects.
-- Bill
You've got a great point about the ribbed hose inducing CFM drag... Hadn't thought of that...
I'm not sure mounting the vac sideways would work all that well. Wouldn't the check ball close it off?
Quote from: dbhost
I'm not sure mounting the vac sideways would work all that well. Wouldn't the check ball close it off?
The powerhead on my Ridgid shopvac can be detached as a blower so it doesn't have a check valve .... but even if it did ... given that there isn't any back pressure against the valve, the blower should / might be able to push the ball out of the way?
In the end, just an idea and something for the OP and others to test first.
Cool...
Just wondered that's all...
I know my Shop Vac brand vac check ball plugs up if the powerhead is even at a fairly slight angle. The Ridgid puts up with more abuse... Then again, it's a MUCH bigger vac too...
Quote from: CheapScotsman on November 25, 2008, 11:06:28 AM
The powerhead on my Ridgid shopvac can be detached as a blower so it doesn't have a check valve .... but even if it did ... given that there isn't any back pressure against the valve, the blower should / might be able to push the ball out of the way?
In the end, just an idea and something for the OP and others to test first.
Easy to test... Just tip it over while it's running! :D
The engineer in me thinks that anything you guys can do to reduce the twists and turns will help your pressure. When I was designing hydraulics, we would often use hoses instead of piping because we could do a nice gentle bend, but those hoses were not ribbed. PVC is great and cheap, but maybe look into some larger radius DC elbows?
I found this stacked option interesting and thought about it for a bit. It seems logical to eliminate the external hose and elbows entirely and simply penetrate the bottom of the tank of the vacuum and feed it directly from the output port of the Thien lid. There's no reason the existing inlet port on the vacuum must be used as the entire tank runs at a reduced pressure. This design requires capping the vacuum's existing inlet. This allows the vacuum to remain upright, provides a short sealed path from the lid below, and a strong structure.
In addition, rather than the lid having the inlet port built in it is possible to attach the inlet hose tangentially to the side of the lower chamber such that the inlet is located between the lid and the separator disk. This eliminates the inlet elbow from inside the lid and should also make a clean vortex.
The connecting hose between the lid and the vacuum tank should continue up into the tank such that the opening is above the expected soil level - a flex hose inside the tank with a relaxed curve to allow a horizontal outflow is easily accomplished.
I've most of the bits to try this with my own setup. With the tangential inlet, cleaning the collection tank should be no different than existing builds except the vacuum comes off with the lid as the inlet host does not project into the collector tank. Forgive the noise if this has already been tried.
Bad form to reply to yourself! but, I've just constructed a stacked vacuum and Thien Lid and it works great. Here's a set of images that hopefully explain my version. Particle separation is beyond belief.
http://thevirtualbarandgrill.com/machinery/ThienLid/
I have also just finished with my Thien Cyclone stacker. No mine isn't with the pickup tube right through the bottom of the vac (interesting idea for sure!) but I did bob the hoses short using some tool hoses that were honestly WAY too long, and some spare fittings from the extra Ridgid vac hose packaging...
The plywood, AND 2x4s that were used in this project was debris that was blown into my yard by Hurricane Ike. I figure that gives it a bit of history!
(http://inlinethumb30.webshots.com/37405/2426688980103915817S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2426688980103915817zNTXWI)