Before I get started, I wanted to thank Phil for his work and dedication to the design of his baffle. I am grateful for all your research and the assistance you give us DIY types. Well done sir!
I am planning on using a new Jet 1100 in a top hat design and had a couple of questions that I have not been able to answer by looking around forums and pictures.
My plan is to mount the Jet 1100 motor and blower vertically, on top of the separator, and exhaust to the outside. This is a small, 400 sq. ft. standalone one man shop. Biggest dust producer is my TS.
I am considering using the Jet separator and building a baffle for it, but the inlet seems to be only 5" (I haven't opened the box yet). My assumption is that the 5" inlet is a compromise when planning on using 6" pipe.
First question is, am I better off building a custom separator with a 6" inlet, vs the Jet 5" separator inlet?
Second, if I build a separator, will I benefit from making its depth 12" or something deeper than the inlet tube?
Third, in a DIY separator scenario, will I benefit from angling the inlet tube slightly down toward the baffle?
Fourth, any definitive recommendation on whether the vertical pipe going to the DC should be flush with the top of the separator, or should it enter deeper into the chamber?
I appreciate any help in building the most optimum design in order to maximize efficiency. I'll post pictures as I proceed.
I am considering using the Jet separator and building a baffle for it the inlet seems to be only 5" (I haven't opened the box yet). My assumption is that the 5" inlet is a compromise when planning on using 6" pipe.
I'm running a 6" main duct to the tophat and then 5" from the tophat to the blower. Works, but I don't know if I took a hit or not. My DC is a Griz 1029 2 hp that originally had a Y the had two 4" branch's so I didn't think that the 6 to 5 would hurt too bad on the outlet, but I wouldn't want to choke the inlet.
First question is, am I better off building a custom separator with a 6" inlet, vs the Jet 5" separator inlet?
Pretty easy to build a custom tophat and your own inlet, that lets you go from round to rectangle.
Second, if I build a separator, will I benefit from making its depth 12" or something deeper than the inlet tube?
I did both and guesstimate that I get better fine separation with the tall chamber
Third, in a DIY separator scenario, will I benefit from angling the inlet tube slightly down toward the baffle?
On my build it sure seems to help, I get a definite downward swirl.
Fourth, any definitive recommendation on whether the vertical pipe going to the DC should be flush with the top of the separator, or should it enter deeper into the chamber?
If you build a chamber the thickness of your inlet, say 6" and have a 5" outlet pipe, the outlet pipe should protrude 1/2 of that diameter or 2 1/2" down into the chamber. If you make an artificially deep chamber add the extra depth to the 1/2 diameter distance.
Thank you for the prompt reply. In my case, I am going to use a new Jet DC-1100 VX (new vortex cone in the separator).
From the top of the Thien separator, it will for sure be 6" since that is the size of the DC impeller inlet. My next decision will be whether or not to use the Jet separator, with vortex cone, as the Thien separator, or as you suggest, make a DIY separator and take advantage of the increased depth. I will likely go the DIY route vs. using the Jet separator, since the Jet has a 5" in inlet and I will in effect choke off some of the capability.
I'm in the process of re-arranging my shop to allow for efficient piping and creating a dedicated location for the DC setup.
i agree with bulldog. make it higher should increase fines seperation.
i would go 6" anyway incase you ever deside to upgrade the dc to a full 6" inlet.
i wouldnt use the jet seperater ring . its already got that cone that would need to be removed (perminently distroying it if you ever sell)
you can make your own seperater the way you wnat it and not be confined by the jet ring
alan m, good points on using the Jet ring. I don't want to damage it in case I ever need or want to sell.
Perhaps I didn't state my questions clearly, but going to 6" for an inlet to the Thien separator is the reason for looking into making one. The initial problem I saw with the Jet ring is that it's 'inlet' is only 5" since it is normally used to carry the dust to the collection bag via the Jet ring. In my setup, this would limit the intake since the Jet ring will be used at the Thien inlet.
Looks like a DIY project is the way to go.
Started my build today and hope it comes out as well as some of the excellent examples on this site.
Does the thickness of the baffle make a difference?
I am trying to use all the good ideas I have seen here, so I will include a bellmouth, a round 6" to rectangular inlet (which I found at HD), plexiglass sides and am making it deeper than just the 6 or so inches of most.
I wish the site had a list of FAQ's for top hat builds.
Not first hand info but I have seen posted on this forum more than once thinner is better. :)
Quote from: tvman44 on August 27, 2013, 06:11:31 PM
Not first hand info but I have seen posted on this forum more than once thinner is better. :)
I had gathered the same. I was hoping Phil might comment since he is the authority on the subject.
I made my first separator with a 3/4" baffle and chamfered the edges; it worked ok. Later I made a 5 gallon separator for use with a shopvac and used 1/4" hardboard. Hard to tell which was better as one was with a DC and ducts the second was a shopvac set up.
This past winter, I rebuilt my main DC separator and used a thin metal plate. It seems to separate out fines better than the original with the 3/4" baffle, but I also changed the inlet and chamber height so it's hard to say which of the changes gave the most improvement. Overall, the separation of fines is now very good.
Bulldog 8, thank you. I actually have been following your posts and am looking at making something similar to your design in terms of height and a rectangular inlet. For the inlet, I found a Galvanized Sheet Metal Range Hood Straight Boot Adapter in home depot. It has a 6" inlet that converts to a 3.25" x 10" slot. Area remains roughly the same, so I am hoping it works.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Speedi-Products-3-25-in-x-10-in-x-6-in-Galvanized-Sheet-Metal-Range-Hood-Straight-Boot-Adapter-SM-RH3106-SB/202907196 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Speedi-Products-3-25-in-x-10-in-x-6-in-Galvanized-Sheet-Metal-Range-Hood-Straight-Boot-Adapter-SM-RH3106-SB/202907196)
I believe you also used plastic for your separator walls. How did you attach the ends to each other in order to complete the tube? I am hoping to stay away from using screws due to the experience of some builders who ran into cracking etc.
Right now I am planning on using a GE product made for adhering acrylic and lexan. My current plan is to simply overlap the acrylic by a couple of inches. This should provide a good amount of surface area for adhesion. I am hoping the airflow will not be disturbed too much.
I need to figure out if that GE glue will work on plastic adhering to MDF or wood. This is the silicone adhesive, which GE says it works on Lexan, acrylic and metal, which should be perfect for our application. I did see a youtube video of a comparison of plastic adhesives and this one was really strong.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-10-oz-Silicone-Cartridge-GE-55/202038071?keyword=ge+silicone+sealant+plastic (http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-10-oz-Silicone-Cartridge-GE-55/202038071?keyword=ge+silicone+sealant+plastic)
Decided to jump right in so will chronicle the project here. If any of you have suggestions that might improve things, please don't hesitate to let me know. I am trying to use the a combination of the great ideas others have suggested.
The Thien baffle will be taller than usual, made of acrylic sides, MDF for top, bottom and support. 6" inlet round to rectangular as explained in my previous post. The 6" outlet to the DC will have a bellmouth and although I was going t order the one used by 'retired2', I may be going with another option after talking with the folks at Penn State Industries.
Trash can is 44 gal. Brute plastic container and I plan on putting an acrylic window on it so I can monitor fill level.
First picture is the baffle, built into the bottom section. In order to make it thinner than the 3/4" MDF, I just used my router to make the baffle itself thinner. This is just after initial cutting.
Second is the Acrylic sheet I will be using, roughly 18" tall. I placed it outside to let the sun warm it up and hope it will retain a tubular shape.
Finally is the inside of the top section with a slot to receive the top of the Acrylic.
I didn't join the ends together. The groove in the top starts at the inlet and stops at the end of the 240 degrees. The only portion of the baffle that was grooved is the 120 degree area.
I don't have many pictures of my last build with the tall chamber, but here is a shot of my first separator to show what I mean. My current tall chamber separator is similar, the top groove starts at the inlet and goes all the way around stopping just short of where the inlet starts. The bottom plate is grooved from the inlet through the 120 degree solid area. The bottom of the wall is then free through the 240 degree area, with a small stop groove right where the inlet is located. The outer wall is sized to press fit in and has been sealed to the wood surfaces with clear silicon.
(http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj359/mannsj/Insideofbaffle_zps6efc7617.png) (http://s552.photobucket.com/user/mannsj/media/Insideofbaffle_zps6efc7617.png.html)
Bulldog8, thank you. I see what you did now. How did you adhere the lexan or acrylic to the wood structure?
I would think making the top hat that tall would improve the collection of fines, would be curious to find out how it functions, I would like to redo one of my collectors to try and improve fine collection and thinking about making a tall top hat, just had not considered that tall. :)
Quote from: tvman44 on August 28, 2013, 06:21:13 PM
I would think making the top hat that tall would improve the collection of fines, would be curious to find out how it functions, I would like to redo one of my collectors to try and improve fine collection and thinking about making a tall top hat, just had not considered that tall. :)
My decision to make it taller than the usual 6" or so was due to several that I saw here and on other sites that were taller. The videos I saw on youtube with tall top hats show a really well defined cyclone action all the way to the baffle opening, so I figured I'd try it. My minimum height would need to be 10" since that is the height of the rectangular opening on the inlet.
I used the very scientific method of just splitting the sheet of acrylic in half, about 18" and just figured I'd use that. It should provide about 8" below the inlet of continuous cylindrical area for the vortex.
I am going to try very hard to minimize any 'final' adhesion or permanent attachments that will prevent me from re-working the design in case it does not work as I imagine.
Quote from: Rudy81 on August 28, 2013, 04:32:23 PM
Bulldog8, thank you. I see what you did now. How did you adhere the lexan or acrylic to the wood structure?
It's mechanically held in place with the grooves and stopped grooves and then sealed where the plastic meets wood with clear silicon on the original and white silicon on the "tall" version. I sealed on the outside of chamber as to not put anything on the inside that could create turbulence.
Bulldog8, glad to hear the silicone has worded to keep things air tight bonding the two distinct surfaces. I am also trying to avoid any fasteners that can either crack the acrylic or disturb airflow unnecessarily.
Thank you for all the tips. BTW, your video on your tall version was one of those that influenced me to start off with a tall version. I hope you are still getting good 'flines' filtering with that setup. Although I will be porting to the outside, I still don't want a lot of large chips thrown outdoors.
I had about 12" tall in mind with the inlet about 1" above the baffle and the 5" outlet to the DC protruding 2 1/2" into the chamber. Seems like the further the inlet is from the outlet the better the collection should be. If I ever get enough time to experiment that is what I want to try. :)
I think that tall chamber helps. The fact that the outlet is lower than the inlet seems to "pull" the airstream downward. I see a very distinct downward swirl. I produce a lot of fines sanding end grain cutting board with a drum sander. The separator has worked very well to keep the DC filter clean.
Exactly what I'm hoping for and it seems what all the tall chambers seem to validate. This project is taking longer than I expected, but figured I'd do it right the first time.
Today I tested the GE adhesive I mentioned in a previous post. My hope is to just adhere the acrylic cylinder to the support structure in order to avoid mechanical fasteners. I tested the adhesive with both MDF and plywood.
The GE adhesive is perfect for this application. After just 4 hours of drying, not even the recommended 12 hours of curing, I could not remove either MDF or plywood from the acrylic sheet. I used relatively large pieces of scrap, so I had plenty of leverage. I cannot remove either piece and suspect the acrylic would break apart before the glue would fail. The adhesive also remains rather pliable, which is an added bonus.
Almost done with the build. Took a few days, but I am hoping it was worth the effort. I am waiting for the bellmouth and 6" pipe to arrive so I can cut the holes on the top section. Otherwise, I am nearly done.
The true test will come when I hook it up and figure out if I have any air leaks. I am very optimistic the adhesive will keep an air tight seal all around. At some point, I will finish painting, but for now, it is in the shop waiting for the adhesive to cure. The adhesive is 'cloudy' when applied, but dries transparent when cured.
A few shots of the final product as it cures.....
Man that is big, can't wait for the efficiency reports.
Quote from: tvman44 on August 31, 2013, 06:28:55 PM
Man that is big, can't wait for the efficiency reports.
Yes it is. Turned out bigger than I thought, but it only uses up vertical space, so not a big deal. The shape of the inlet forces you into at least a 10" plus height. This one is about 19" in height.
I'm not sure how to measure the 'efficiency', but I'll be happy if it does the job. Unless I end up with air leaks, it should work well based on the results of other builds.
Once I get it up and running I'll post some impressions.
Adhesive cured and it certainly seems like it will be successful. Got a chance to mount the new Jet DC-1100VX. Now will have to wait for the bellmouth and pipe to arrive this coming week. I purchased all my pipe from Home Depot. I had to order all of it since I opted for the heavier gauge stuff rather than what they have in the store. Pricing was the best I could find compared to waste PVC or dedicated DC pipe.
If it's all sealed up, how are you going to get the bell mouth into it?
Since I didn't know the diameter of the bellmouth, I have not cut out the circle on the top section. As soon as it gets here, I can cut out the top and install the bellmouth and pipe.
My plan is to make a cut out like retired2 did on his build. Wide enough to allow the entire bellmouth to fit and a top section screwed to the top to seal the seam. This should allow ample space for making changes etc.
I will also be coming up with some sort of air straightener since I intentionally made the Thien collector in a manner that rotates counter to the DC rotation. This, after studying the various publications on air rotation effects on CFM and horsepower.
Check out my post of Aug 15 regarding Plexus M310 adhesive for plastics. Go to the Jamestown Distributors site for more info.
John T
John,
Thank you, if the GE adhesive does not work, I'll look into your suggestion.
I should be continuing the build tomorrow if UPS shows up as scheduled. Today I built my air straightener. I decided to make it a separate section in order to offer me flexibility of positioning along the DC to Thien baffle connection.
I used two fluorescent bulb protectors from Lowes, different sizes allowed a tight fit in the 6" pipe.
Another busy day today with this project. I got 95% of my materials delivered. Unfortunately, I let the folks at Penn State talk me out of the bellmouth I had originally ordered and they sent me a bellmouth designed for one of their products. Sadly, what they sent will not work with this application, so that has set me back at least a week.
While I wait, I decided to work on a plenum to direct the exhaust air. I wanted to be able to 'see' if there is anything getting past the Thien separator and also be able to remove any such items from the plenum. So, I came up with a box that incorporates a Plexiglas window. The section with the window is easy to remove in case I ever need to clean out the box. Pictures below. BTW, the plenum has three large openings to the outside that are covered with screened louvers.
I am planning on using a couple of rivets to hold the major pipe components. Based on various comments, I think that might be better than screws.
I picked up all the pipe from HD online. Most is 26 gauge, and the wyes are reverse flow, so that makes life easier. Can't imagine I could have done this any cheaper with PVC.
What is the diameter of the metal tubing you got from HD?
I ordered all 6" for my main line. I have a few 5" pieces I picked up locally at HD for the DC exhaust.
5" is what I am interested in, I want to use some 5" to exhaust my DC outside. Right now I am using some 4" flex to exhaust outside. :)
tvman44, I too used 5" for my exhaust setup. I found everything I needed at HD and Lowes. HD was the only place that had the 5 foot sections of 5". Otherwise, both stores had 5" pieces.
Just finished the installation of the bellmouth. I have not been able to test the complete system today since I'm allowing the final bit of sealer to cure before adding the last bit of aluminum tape to the intake. I am really hoping this works. It has been a lot of work which included running 6" pipe all over the shop.
The bellmouth fit perfectly the crimped end of a pipe, which also holds the air straightener.
I routed a hole large enough to allow the bellmouth to drop into the Thien enclosure, then made a disk to fit that hole and another larger disk to seal the top. I used foam tape on the larger disk to keep a tight seal on the top of the enclosure. BTW, the 6" bellmouth has a bell diameter of 12 1/8".
You might note that the DC exhaust pipe is different than I originally set up. I didn't like that pipe having a tight 90 bend. I figured it could cause the DC to work harder than it needs to due to back pressure. Not sure if that is correct or not, but it was worth smoothing out the flow a bit.
Tomorrow I will fire this thing up and see if it works.
Finally! Got a chance to test the project out and so far it seems to be a total success. I ran various handfuls of dust, mostly MDF and smaller wood shavings. Although I have not checked for leaks, the system seems to have plenty of power. The following video was made using a 10' long, 6" plastic pipe connected to about 4' of metal pipe (total distance from the inlet). I did not notice any visible dust being exhausted and when the system was shut down there was nothing left in the baffle.
Thanks again to Phil and those who posted their ideas on the subject.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHExpJoeu3E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHExpJoeu3E)
Looks awesome Rudy! I look forward to reports after some extended use.
Phil, Thank you again for all your work. I will report after I actually get to use it. I'm still running pipe and setting up effective collection at each machine.
One thing I noticed when comparing youtube videos of various builds is that the taller the area above the baffle, the shallower the slope of the 'swirl' on its way to the Thien slot. The shorter containers have a much steeper slope. Is this a function of the inlet, the height of the container, or some other design feature?
Thus far, I am very impressed with the efficiency of dust separation.
Quote from: Rudy81 on September 13, 2013, 03:26:43 PM
One thing I noticed when comparing youtube videos of various builds is that the taller the area above the baffle, the shallower the slope of the 'swirl' on its way to the Thien slot. The shorter containers have a much steeper slope. Is this a function of the inlet, the height of the container, or some other design feature?
That would be related to the volume above the baffle, the surface area of the outside wall, and the location of the inlet.
Finally got a chance to work on a project actually using this system. The Jet 1100 DC together with the Thien baffle works perfectly. No problems at all. Cut plenty of MDF on the TS today and did not even have to do any clean up when I was done....just amazing.
I did add a blade guard with dust collection connected to my shop vac. Which is now also vented to the outside.
Rudy - I'm about to build my second Thien baffle in a top hat design not far off of what I have seen you do in this post. I'm trying to squeeze as much as I can out of a relatively marginal Grizzly 2hp blower. It seems there is a worthwhile separation advantage in using the taller chamber as you have and using a round to rectangular transition at the intake to the separation chamber.
Since I have all of my main runs in 6" S&D PVC pipe, I am thinking of trying to heat form the round to rectangular transition right from the 6" S&D to allow a little smoother transition and easier matching to the main duct pipe... but maybe it won't be worth the time spent forming the transition. Your sheet metal round to rectangular transition certainly seemed to make that part of the fabrication pretty simple. Now that you have a little experience running your version of a Thien separator with all of your ducting in place - is there anything you would have done differently with your build?
JeffQ,
I have used my build for about two or three days' worth of work and thus far have no complaints. I am getting plenty of CFM draw from my modest Jet DC. I can only credit a successful build to all the various posts and ideas others have come mentioned. As you can see, my build was a compilation of the best ideas I have found on the site.
I highly recommend the round to rectangular metal piece I used. Works great and it is just to easy to install to go to the trouble of trying to hammer one out. I would suspect you could easily adapt one to your ducting.
I am still surprised at the effectiveness of the baffle I built. If anything is getting past the baffle, it is not visible.....although I vent outside and don't spend too much time monitoring any output while working. When I tested the system, nothing was getting past the baffle that I could see.
I hope this helps.
I'm planning on a very similar design but have a concern about rotating the motor/impeller assembly from horizontal to vertical. This will place different loads on the motor/impeller bearings. Is there any data/information on this? Is it a potential issue? If I don't rotate the motor/fan I would have a 90 deg. elbow between the separator and impeller. Does adding an elbow here add enough restriction to be concerned about? I have a DC-1200 which is borderline if I want to keep airflow speeds high enough to effectively remove the fines from my tools.
Instead of a elbow, use 2 45 degree bends. Less restriction.
OK...maybe that's the way to go...keep the motor in the same orientation and use 2 45's from the separator to the impeller. Next question is flow straighteners - should they be installed just past the bellmouth at the separator or after the last 45 ahead of the impeller?
I don't know anything flow about straighteners, maybe some of the engineers on here can answer that. As for turning the blower sideways I have seen many pictures of set ups that did just that. It would definitely put a different kind of load on the bearings, if that is a bad thing I am no engineer. :)
I am reviving this build thread to provide some data I just obtained using a Pyle anemometer.
I am reworking my shop and have been contemplating purchasing a commercial cyclone like a Dust Deputy XL or one of the builds from the gent in East Caroga.
Before trashing my build, I thought I should see what kind of performance I am getting from my build.
I measured my 6" metal pipe at a blast gate that is 5 feet from the top hat inlet. The gate has a diameter of 5.5" so I used an area calculation of 0.164 sq. ft.
Results were 3785 ft/min velocity and 640 CFM.
Considering my 1.5 hp JET DC motor is on the low end of dust collector setups, I was fairly impressed with the performance.
I plan on measuring the performance of the DC itself once I take the system apart to move it to a new location. This should show me what kind of losses I am incurring in the top hat.
If anyone can see where I messed up the calculations, please let me know. Also, if you have experience with a cyclone vs. the Thien baflle, I would be interested in your experience.
At this point I'm not sure a cyclone would perform much better, but I have no way of knowing. Seems data points are scarce for these builds and the cyclone with a Jet DC.
too funny Rudy, re your reviing this thread.
I am trying to decide if I should build your fantastic looking Thien version separator or buy the super dust deputy xl.
Did you go the dust deputy route yet? If so, any comparisons or comment?