J. Phil Thien's Projects

Hummm,
No one has replied. Would of figured someone would have by now but then again not to many are running 6" duct.
For starters sailfl, you will need to increase the size of the inlet of your DC to 6" as it is currently only 5" which will require making a plate.
If you do not wish to do this many have had some pretty good results with 5" and if you are running it directly to a machine it should be really sufficient for just one machine hookup.
5" flex is a oddity but is available at Wynn Environmental and other locations - mostly online unless you have something local.

Phil, have not seen you post in a while - everything OK on your end?

Big Dawg,
I stopped laughing now  ;D. I really did not laugh as I thought what you did with the leaf blower was a good idea. Believe it or not I was thinking along those lines at one time... ;)

bennybmn,
I have been looking into putting in a overhead guard - have not built it yet.
How much fabrication did you have to do to make the PSI one work?

bennybmn,
You have the concept. Sometimes it is hard to put into word what you mean in a technical manner. (even though I write technical manuals for a living)
Good analogy!

Expo,

The pic posted is something I wonder if anyone has ever tried.
Not the best as far a drawings but I think you can get the concept.
It could be considered as a neutral vain but not quite.
If the inlet to the separator were to be taken from round to a rectangle it would cause the air stream to ride the side of the cylinder. Also if it is pointed downward at a slight angle, it would cause the debris to enter the bag instead of the filter.
This is my logic on this - when a round stream hits into a flat surface the air stream will mushroom out pushing the stream upward, downward and inward. If the stream is forced to ride the surface sort of in a flat stream it will reduce or eliminate the mushroom effect, thus causing the debris to drop downward past Phil's baffle and into the bag, allowing much better separation.
Also note the position of the outlet is at the end of the baffle solid area instead of the beginning. I did this on my top hat version and seems to work great.
I hope this make sense...

A word of advise, tell the SWMBO that her health and the rest of your families (if you have children) are worth the expense much less the problems of fine dust getting all over the place  ;D. Pay now or pay later is the old saying...

Nice job!!!

Big Dawg,
Don't let Bills site scare you to much, as others in the woodworking community have said is that his situation with his lungs may be much different then you or I. He however does make some valid points. I mean face it, we breath all the time and there has to be partials smaller than 5 microns just floating in the air outside as well as where you work. Its inevitable but the concentrations in a wood shop are much higher is what his point is.

Not sure if it is the same motor as the one that is currently on sale but I have heard that they did a few improvements to it since I bought mine. I have had mine seems like forever (early to mid 90's). There is no actual tag on the motor but it says 2HP 20 amp peak on the fan assembly tag. Its on sale for $180.00. I guess and if you have the 20% coupon would bring it down to $150.00. That is a great deal I think. I bought mine for 138.00 shipped way back. You can't actually buy TEFC motor for that price.

I know one thing is the motor on mine is a beast. Heavy as all get out. Cast iron on the outside.
What ever you do plan on upgrading the filter. Wynn Environmental sells a kit that is quite reasonable and their service is excellent. If you need additional flex hose they have that also (they carry larger then 4"). However you will have to allow for and extra $100.00 for the filter but it is well worth it. I got .5 micron paper one but I think if I were to do it again I would opt for the 1 micron poly spun as it can be washed with a garden hose.

Big Dawg,

I understand your not understanding (does that make sense  ;D)
As I have stated before (maybe not here but...) I am no expert.
I guess my example was not very good now that I look at it.
Yea you can only get so much out of a pipe (airflow). What causes a loss is friction with the sidewall of the pipe and that is where your loss is at. That is why smooth wall pipe is better than flex even though you have the same internal diameter.
Short runs in most systems are not a problem and running 4" will work but to get the optimum out of your system you need larger pipe.
I will try another example....
In your home water supply, the inlet is either 1" or 3/4" which is your main trunk. Off of that you have usually 1/2" pipe going to faucets and such.
The reason for the 1" or 3/4 main is to keep the pressure up in case of one or more faucets are open at the same time (the old flush the toilet while someone is in the shower and get scolded) or when a faucet is open there is no sudden pressure drop.
DC kind of works the same but it is more friction-turbulence instead of actual pressure. I have little to no actual air flow loss at the end of a run using 6" pipe reducing down to 4" which allows the 4" to draw the max amount of air flow. I will also open more than one gate to allow more air flow through the 6" main trunk. Using only 4" over a distance will cause an air flow drop.
More like checking the flow right at the DC compared to checking it at the end of a long run using only 4" pipe.
Does that make more sense...?
Very rarely for instance will you only use one port. Table saw should have under and over blade collection. If you branch a 4" supply in half you will only get half of the possible air flow due to restriction of the amount of possible air flow. I also use two ports using my router table.
The only thing I use one port on is the joiner and planer, however those do not really produce any fine dust, more like shavings.
Did you read Bill Pentz site?

Regards,

Greg

Here are some pics of my latest setup with different saw (old Walker Turner cabinet) and expanded shop.
I have not sealed the piping yet as I am still trying out different setups.
My older pics in the above post are just that - old.
You will note the difference in the filter setup.
Please excuse the mess - am still in construction... ;D

See my responses in bold

As has been suggested by him and others, using a separate separator (garbage can) attached to your DC will likely reduce suction thus the design idea of putting the cyclone/baffle in the DC to minimize the loss.
But...unless I am missing something here...isn't Greg McCallister setup still using a garbage can separator, that is separate from the DC?

No actually it is part of the DC or more in the theory of a cyclone. A can separator is usually installed in stream before the impeller then exits to another separator. My version only uses one separator. The only thing I am using off of the original HF DC is the motor, impeller and housing assembly. The inlet and outlet to the filter has been expanded to 6? also.

So why didn't he noticed the same losses?

By only going through one separator there is much less loss of airflow due to turbulence and resistance. Much like those who added Phil?s baffle directly to the DC instead of using a separate can setup.
The original can separator I had was only a 4? inlet going into a lid with a 4? outlet. Turbulence was high as it did not have Phil?s baffle and separation was poor. I think you might be misunderstanding me but I never said that Phil?s design was bad as many who have made his version have noted little to no loss of air flow compared to the store bought lids without the baffle.

I realize that there are less hoses since it is attached directly to the motor, but doesn't the largest loss come from the garbage can itself?

Yes actually it is in a way but flex hose causes more loss, but being that Phil?s baffle pretty much eliminates the can from the air stream it is not as relevant. Much like those who added the baffle to the original DC have noted that there is a lot less swirling in the lower bag after adding the baffle ? less turbulence, better air flow.

Also, he is using 6" piping. Again, maybe I am missing something important, but no matter how large the pipe is, if it has to be eventually dropped down to 3" or 4" to connect to the power tools, don't you loose any advantage of the larger diameter pipe? The air still has to be squeezed down to fit through the smaller opening at the ends. Wouldn't that constriction take away any advantage of the larger pipe? Besides, wouldn't a larger diameter pipe reduce the suction (static pressure) developed by the DC?
Confused (My wife says I stay confused most of the time, anyway)

Have you ever used a shop vac with the 1.25 hose and then use the 2.25 hose and notice the difference in the amount of airflow? I think a better example would be to use a 10? piece of 4? hose and check the air flow and use a 20? section and compare the two. You will notice a noticeable reduction of the amount of air flow in the longer piece. You also need to take note that 6? pipe has less resistance (larger center stream) that does not cause as much friction or turbulence. I am not going to get into the dynamics of it but to better understand this I would highly recommend to read Bill Pentz site on Dust collection. Not that he is the authority on dust collection but there is a wealth of information there and he is the only one I know of who has explained much of what you are asking. Oh, and a DC is not the same as a shop vac. A DC is an air mover with a low static pressure compared to a shop vac with a high static pressure with lower air movement. Hope that helps explain some.
Greg

you can find my post here http://www.jpthien.com/smf/index.php?topic=90.0

dbhost,

This a a fyi when it comes to hose clamps.
If you are using a screw type clamp such as the ones used for radiator hoses, you can put two smaller clamps together to make one larger hose clamp. Just unscrew both all the way and put one into the other.

Phil's baffle does work for course as well as fines. How much of a hit on total airflow, as far as I know, has not been scientifically analyzed. Most here are woodworkers by hobby with limited resources.
Knowing that you have read Bill P. site you also know that a cyclone reduces air flow tremendously - upwards of 30% or more if my memory is correct.
Phil's design is no where near that.
I am using 6" duct and I can tell you that Phil's design works great. I have emptied my 30 gal barrel at least 5 times now and have the filter connected directly to the outlet without any clean out. I have to empty the barrel again today and plan on looking at the filter to see what kind of buildup I have as I have been doing a lot of sawing, sanding and have cut some MDF too. Will post results on that soon.
Dean, to be honest I think you have already answered your own question in your post. Not sure as to what size duct you are currently using but I have found personally that 6" duct is the way to go no matter what system you are using.
Phil's design is not a cash cow so if you are not pleased with the results, you can always go to a cyclone without breaking the bank and as far as the 6" duct, it is really needed either way you go.
Wish I had more of a scientific answer to give you but the whole reason I believe Phil made this design is the fact of wanting DC separation without much cost. No one here that I know of has Bill Pentz resources for testing.
Believe me though that you will not be sorry if you use Phil's design.

Do you have a drawing or something that we can look at?