J. Phil Thien's Projects

retired2: I do not recall the sp, but the cfm is rated at 1900. Before I built this separator, I had tried opening 2 gates on the same line with a resulting loss at any given tool. I understand you can only get so much air through a 4" line regardless how many gates are open. I just know the suction I had when using the original splitter that came on the dc and a 35' piece of flex hose that I moved from tool to tool and what I have now. I kept tripping on the flex and decided to try a central hard line setup. Because of installing the 2 main lines as I did I thought of using the accumulator and going to the 6" line through the separator to the dc. I decided to give the separator the old redneck test yesterday and trying to make it as accurate as possible so I disconnected the separator from the accumulater and placed my hand in front of it to check suction, then I disconnected the separator from the line to the dc and checked it the same way. Very noticeable difference in the loss caused by the separator. May need to look at what I have wrong there before going further. I wanted to test it this way because it takes all the elbows into consideration and just shows what the separator itself looses.

Retired2: I had thought of a similiar setup after Vodkaman's suggestion but had not thought of 2 wyes with 45s and an end cap. I was trying to picture 1-45 off of the leg of the wye and 2- 45s off of the end to make a sweeping 90. I think either way would eliminate a short 90, which will take care of the inlet side. Then I can start working on replacing the outlet side short 90s with sweeping 90s. I want to thank everyone for your suggestions.

Phil: So many choices and with my limited knowledge of suction loss due to sharp radius turns, size of pipe restrictions etc. is enough to boggle my mind. I went with the 6" pipe size through the separator because it is 2.28 times larger area wise than 4" and I wanted to not have to completely replumb my shop. That would probably be the smart thing to do but at this time I am not in a position to do so. I work in maintenance and actually Vodkaman's approach is the way I do all my trouble shooting to repair equipment. There has been a lot of good info put out there and I will admit, I was looking for the easy way out. Give me the answer don't make me figure it out myself. I have been the most concerned about the accumulator knowing I should start by replacing it. Chuck had a very good thought about going with 2 separators but I have been down that path except, with the Rockler type setup, not your design. I think I will probably put my experience in troubleshooting to work and see where it leads. Maybe in the end I will have all new plumbing throughout maybe not, but I will have gained a lot of knowledge in dust control (good or bad).

Vodkaman: thanks for the smack up side the head. Will post results as they progress.

Chuck, the more I think about it the more I like your idea of using 2 separators. It will be next week before I can start on this do-over but am going to give it a try. I am off work during the week and will just to see what my evenings bring before getting to this but think you may have hit on a solution. Thanks to all for your input and suggestions. Will post the results in a week or so.

Retired2: I hate to say it but if we keep going my dc will be blowing instead of sucking. I do know that I do not have access to the equipment needed or the knowledge required to do this type of testing. All of my assumptions have been made of the redneck type testing, putting my hand across an opening/connection and having my wife open and close blast gates until I make up my mind what I think the problem may be. I am fortunate to have a wife that will help me indulge my curiosity.

Chuck: you are correct about my shop being a one man show. My shop is 14 x 48, with most of the action in the front. My dc is centrally located with 1 line going to the front to a table saw, a Jet 22/44 oscillating drum sander and a piece of flex hose for whatever. The 2nd line goes to the rear to a miter saw cabinet (primary tool on that line), a 6" jointer, Rigid lunch box plane, band saw, horizontal belt sander and a router table. I also have a 2" line coming off of the 2nd main that goes to the front, to an over blade hood on my table saw. The miter saw cabinet stays connected as does the table saw and drum sander, all other tools are on mobile bases and gets moved around as needed. From what you are saying, I could build 2 separators and leave the gates open to the miter saw cabinet on 1 line and leave the gate for the table saw open on the other line until I needed another tool at which time I could close the respective gate and open 1 for the other tool. I also have 2 metal 30 gallon trash cans I can use for this in place of the rubbermaid brutes that I now have. Thank you for your help.

Retired2: I appreciate your input. I knew there was a difference in suction loss with different ells but had never calculated it out. I used some 45 degree ells with a short section of pipe between trying to reduce loss. When you actually put numbers to it, it really changes the whole picture. I think Chuck is on to something with his idea of trying 2 separators. I already have nearly everything I need to change over, I would only need to build the baffle setup for the cans I already have. Will wait on the answer back from Chuck and give it a try. Thanks for the eye opener. 160 ft of pipe equivilent, just from above the accumulator to the dc. Never would have guessed. Thanks

Chuck: I had the setup you describe just before I changed to this one, with the only difference being the separator. I was using the Rockler design, entry and outlet on the outer edge of the lid and a 90 degree ell in opposing directions on the inside. Each one worked great but when I would change from 1 line to the other, the 1st can would empty into the dc. If you think using the Thien baffle design would prevent this it is worth a try. You are correct in the 1900 cfm and plastic trash cans. When I was using the other setup I could collapse the can that was shut off. I had to leave a blast gate partially open to prevent this and I think that is why the opposite can would empty, there being enough air flow to scrub the can. Do you this would happen with the Thien baffle design or would the baffle be enough to prevent the scrubbing action? I could use the original Thien design, top entry and exit, connected with a very short run of 4" flex to the entry point and a moderately longer run from the separator to the dc 3 way wye you referenced and eliminate a lot of hard 90's in the process. This would take care of the concerns expressed by yourself, Phil and Retired2. Any thoughts about the possible scrubbing vs eliminating wyes and the ensuing loss of suction will be most appreciated.

Phil: you are correct, I really don't want to tear my dc apart at this time. Raising it higher sounds like a better idea. Chuck also brought this up and I have 12 foot ceilings so have plenty of room.

Chuck: I do not take this as criticisim at all. I asked for opinions and that is how I look at this. As far as the tweeking goes, I told my wife that I probably would never be completely satisfied with my setup so would have to keep working on it. Best way I know to get new stuff. She understands that, because her sewing room is also a work in progress.

Thanks to both for your input, it has been helpful. Now back to the shop and she what I can make of this.

Another thought on your suggestion. Would it be better, where I have the 90 degree ells to replace them with 2-45 degree ells with maybe a short 6"straight run between each 45? I think I will have enough room to do this if you think it will help. That is what I have done on the pvc main runs in my original setup.

Phil: with the limited real estate where the separator sits I couldn't think of any other way to do this unless I use some flex and curve it up and around a little more. Suggestions?

Chuck: the outlet is about 3" down from the top, 1/2 the diameter as suggested and it is also about 3 1/2" up from the baffle. This picture doesn't show that too well. If you think it should be more, what is your suggestion? I am open to all.

I was just wondering if you thought the accumulator might also be part of the problem or not. With the lexan front I am able to see a lot of swirling around and was not sure if that indicated a problem or just natural air pattern. I still really like the design and only had to buy a couple of items, the rest I had laying around the shop.

Don't know what happened but the pictures went through. Machine is way smarter than me. That is a good thing.

No pictures from me tonight. Your site says 1920 kb max, yet it will not take pictures even after I downsize them to 134 kb, what gives?

Let me try this again. I have a Powermatic 1900 dc, I got tired of hearing the knots banging through the impeller when planing pine so started looking at the super dust deputy from Onieda. I then ran across your site and decided to try your design. I had 3, 4" main lines running through my shop. I brought these into an accumulator, then a 6" line to the separator and a 6" line into the dc. It seems that I lost some suction with this setup. My question is this, do you think I would be better off to remove the accumulator and bring the 4" lines into a couple of 6" wyes then into a single 6" line into the separator then a 6" line into the dc? If my pictures come through, I think this will all make sense. Thank you for the design (works great) and for any help/info you may be able to supply. (file too large, pictures to follow)