J. Phil Thien's Projects

If it feels good, do it.

Raymond

I have to kick in my .02 cents worth here.

You can connect the helical wire in flex duct to whatever is on either end but IMHO the only thing you have done is ground whatever it is connected to, on either end. YOU can still receive a static shock if you get next to the flex. The wire is completely enclosed in the rubber/plastic the flex is made of, which is an insulator. If the flex is long enough it will still build up a small charge. This charge probably is not enough to do any damage but can be a surprise to you, which may cause you to hurt yourself when you reactively jump.

Just saying, wire encased in rubber/plastic can not be grounded.

Raymond

Merry Christmas to all.

Thank you Phil. I do think I will give it a try.

Can anyone remember if it has been tried? I have gone through these posts a couple of times in the past but do not remember seeing this setup posted. I am sure I did not completely read each and every one so maybe missed it.

As soon as I can get the parts and my hand lets me, I will be the first (or maybe not) to give it a try. Will post results in the near future.

Phil: that trash can had a small leak in each side seam. I caulked both side seams and the bottom seam as well. Thanks for the heads up.

Raymond

Sweet shop. Had looked at your post earlier. We discussed putting a window in your collection can to see when it is full. I think putting a blast gate with a length of flex hose would make it easier to empty. My dc is similiar in design to yours. It is a Powermatic with canister filters. It came with plastic catch bags. A royal pain it the rear to remove without making a major mess. I bought 2 strap band clamps, put a window in 2 metal trash cans, put in 2 new plastic bags, seated them well, cut off about 2/3rds of the bottom, slipped those cutoff bags over my trash cans and clamped them down. Made emptying the dust a whole lot easier and cleaner. Works very well and collection is superb. Only problem, when using my drum sander the canisters clog up rather quickly. That is what I am trying to eliminate with a separator. The flappers are easy to use and help keep the filters from clogging IF you remember to use them during your project. I once had them clog so bad that the flappers made no sound for about 3 revolutions before they started to knock off the caked on dust. NO suction was my first clue they were clogged. 

Let us know what your next change will be. I should be back in the shop next week and will post my NEW tophat stand design when completed. Will also post new results.

Am seriously thinking of going to the 8"  connection between the dc and separator, unless someone tells me why it would be a bad idea.

Looking forward to any input.

Raymond

Surgery went well. Getting flexability and grip back already. Stitches out next week.

I have caulked all seams in my tophat, except for the outlet tube. Will be caulking the seams on my collection can today. Thanks Phil, never thought about the possibility of the can leaking.

Now for my question: is it beneficial/detrimental to have the outlet pipe larger than the inlet? Kind of like a cyclone. 6" inlet, 8" outlet. My dc has an 8" inlet so was wondering if it would help to utilize it to it's full potential. I do not remember this being discussed in the past, maybe it was and I overlooked it.

I have devised a plan about a stand for the tophat to set on and the collection can to attach under and make it a lot easier to remove for dumping. Hopefully I can get started on this design/build next week. Will keep y'all posted.

Looking forward to responses about the inlet/outlet idea before I start back together with my system.

Thank you

Raymond

I do know that I have some leaks in my system but with me testing where I am, those leaks are taken into consideration with either test. If I have time before my surgery I think I will disconnect my ductwork and do the same test right at the inlet to the separator and then at the hose I connect to the the outlet from the separator. That should give a test that only has the separator to be considered. I need to caulk a couple of leaks in my separator first. I haven't caulked them yet because I am toying with a different configuration idea. Didn't want to waste the time if I am going to pursue this other idea. We will see.

Raymond

Very interesting. Not sure what type of dc you have, how it compares to mine. I have a Powermatic 1900. It would be interesting to see what the comparison is in relation to stated cfm. Mine is supposed to be 1900 cfm at 8" inlet. I have it reduced down to 6". Not sure what that reduces the cfm to. I may have done my test wrong. I had the adapter for the manometer blocking the end of the hose at the very end of my longest line. I noticed you had a fitting in the duct just before it goes through the wall. Not really sure what this does to the test results between your setup and mine but for either, it gives each one of us a solid number to compare to.

The things we big kids do for entertainment.

Raymond

Looks like a very professional build. Mine was very basic but it gave me the info I was looking for. With your dc in another room, your setup will be great as an indicator. First, is it running. Second, it should be a good indicater if you get a plugged line.

Glad I could provide an idea. You capitalized on it, top notch.

Looking forward to see your results.

Raymond

Phil: Thank you. I am having the same doctor do it. Should be fine. With all the surgeries I have had it continues to surprise the doctors how quick I recover. The main thing that surprises them is that diabetics are typically not fast healers. They say I heal faster than most non diabetics they treat. I tell them I am just too hardheaded to let it get me down.

Retired2: I also am right handed and the left hand messed up first. Go figure. I also had the cortisone shot in my left thumb, it lasted about 3 weeks. I had that thumb done in July 2009, then in Dec, '09 my 2 middle fingers on the left hand acted up. I told the doctor to not even mess with the shot. Let's fix it. Now my thumb and middle 2 fingers are bothering me, again I told him to fix it, heck with the shot. Since we scheduled the surgery, my rt index finger is acting up. Will probably get him to do it also.

Trigger finger is what they call it. The doctor explained it as the ligaments not sliding properly. He likened it to fishing line getting a knot in it, hanging in the guides. Then popping through and when you reel it back it hangs again then pops through. They go in and slice a small part of the outer section of the ligament so the inner 2 parts can slide as they are supposed to do. No sweat. The irritating part is not being able to bend the thumb or fingers to pick up something without having to force them to bend.

Will continue to lurk about until I can get back in the shop.

Raymond

Galerdude: Thanks. When I had my left hand done, it was no big deal. Just had to let the incision heal and not break apart. Out of the shop for 2-3 weeks. It will improve my grip though. Can't grip anything with it as it is. Thumb and fingers lock up in the joint and don't want to flex.

Will keep checking back to follow your progress with the manometer..

Raymond

Phil: I found some leaks around the edge of the Lexan. Not sure if it is enough to create the problem I am having or not.  I will seal it with silicone instead of tape. Easier and should seal it better. Thanks.

Galerdude: The manometer is easy to make and it gave me a more realistic test than just sticking my hand over the flex hose like I was doing. Have fun with it.

I have some pictures of the redo, hope they come through.

I will be having trigger finger surgery on my thumb and three fingers of my rt hand next week so have to try and finish this project for the wife. My separator will be on hold for a few weeks during recovery.

Raymond

Galerdude: Yes, I am using a metal collection can. Yes, I put a window in it. When I built it I cut the hole in the can, cut the window 1" larger on all sides, drilled the holes through the window and can, placed a bead of silicone around the hole in the can, bolted on the window squishing out the silicone and then wiped around the inside and outside to complete the seal. I have been un-able to detect any leaks here. The under side of my tophat is made of 3/8" mdf with the hole cut to be a press fit around the top of the can, it rests on the 1/4" mdf that I made the baffle from. I have not noticed a leak in this area but will check again to be sure.

I have read on different posts about the shape of the collection can not being of importance. I have thought of raising the tophat and mounting it on the wall, adding a 4 sided funnel tapering fron 21" down to a 6" connection to the can. Any thoughts on this vs trying to build a round funnel. The 4 sided method will be a lot easier to build but will it be detrimental or no difference. Just curious. Doing this either way will make it easier to empty the can.

Thanks for the questions. The more things to check the better. I know the answer is out there.

Raymond

Resized these pictures and trying again.

Raymond

Phil: thanks for your response. The cyclone I mentioned is just the body. You can either put a blower on top or connect a single stage dc to it like some of us are doing with your separator design. I will try your suggestion on taping all seams and trying again. (after I complete this project I am doing for the wifes sewing room.) First things first. I will say the separator has cut down on the filter clogging, even with the suction loss I am experiencing. The super dust deputy, you are probably familiar with.

Galerdude: I am doing the test at the same place, trying to keep the test apples for apples. That said, my tests are done at the longest distance from my dc. That is through about 32' of 6" pipe, a 4" blast gate and 15' of 4" flex. This is where I put a portable Delta downdraft table to do hand sanding with a random orbital sander. At the end of the same hard pipe but only 2' of 4" flex I have a Jet 22/44 drum sander. These are my major fines generators.

As far as the manometer, I just typed manometer in my bing search engine and started looking. When I came to this project I decided to give it a try. Not sure as to the accuracy but it is a simple apples for apples test . The easy instructions are: place a scrap of wood vertical ( I used a piece of 1/4" plywood about 15" wide by 24" tall) place a clear tube in a u-shaped loop on this board, add some food coloring to water and pour into the tube until the loop is about 1/2 full. Place a mark ( 0 ) even with the levels of water. Then I measured/marked inch marks up and down from that point. 7 or 8 inches each way is more than enough. I plugged one end of the tube, drilled a hole through a piece of 3/4" plywood and forced the other end of the tube into that. That piece of plywood then is placed over the end of your suction test hose. When it pulls the water up you read both measurements. 1 side goes up 5" the other side goes down 5", this equals 10" suction. At least that is the way I understand it to work. That is how I arrived at my numbers.

Thanks for the input/suggestions. I will try to post some pictures in the next few days, of the redo and the manometer. Maybe someone else will get a kick out of it also.

Tried to add manometer pictures now, hope they come through.

Raymond

OK. My redo is complete. All new 6", 24 gauge stove pipe. All but 1 sharp 90 replaced with 30 and 60 degree ells. Ductwork runs down to 6" wyes and blast gates then to 4" flex to the tool ports. I am thinking of changing some of those to 6" also, where possible.

Now for my delimma. I thought I lost a lot of suction with the separator so I built a simple manometer from instructions found on the internet. Without the separator I was pulling 10" of suction. With the separator suction fell to 6". I also noticed that when I was using only 1 - 4" gate that I was pulling dust up out of the collection can. I could partially open the adjacent gate and would stop pulling dust out of the can but the "working gate" lost a lot of suction. I don't know if it was actually bypassing or just pulling the dust into the tophat and just swirling around. Ran out of time. Hopefully tomorrow I can determine if it was bypassing or not.

Before I found the plans for the Thien Baffle, I had been looking at the super dust deputy from Onieda. I also saw a cyclone modification on ebay from a guy in New York. My question is this, is this type of suction loss normal for any type of separator or have I done something wrong in the way I built my separator?

I do a lot of planing and sanding rough lumber and am getting tired of constantly clogging the filters on my dc so would like to have a separator to cut down on this problem. I just don't know if I have made a boo-boo or if any type of separator will give comparable suction loss.

Any thoughts or suggestions from the readers and/or Phil will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,

Raymond