I am in the process of making a separator for my Delta 50-760. (I will be providing pictures soon.) I am using a 30-gallon steel drum and have installed 4" ports. I have a couple of questions before beginning the baffle section:
Does the material or diameter of the spacers matter? I was planning on using 3/4" wood dowels but am open to using plastic or metal threaded rods.
Where should the spacers be positioned -- should they be equidistant between the center and the circumference of the baffle?
I am planning on using 1/4" hardboard -- is this the best material (within reason, of course)? How about MDF?
Should the outer part of the baffle be touching (flush with) the side of the barrel?
Finally, I assume the baffle should be positioned so the opening of the elbow piece is as far from the "drop slot" as possible. Is this correct?
Thanks,
Brian
Quote from: Brian Marks on February 20, 2009, 11:40:58 AM
I am in the process of making a separator for my Delta 50-760. (I will be providing pictures soon.) I am using a 30-gallon steel drum and have installed 4" ports. I have a coupe of questions before beginning the baffle section:
Does the material or diameter of the spacers matter? I was planning on using 3/4" wood dowels but am open to using plastic or metal threaded rods.
The thinner the better, the stuff I used was 1/2" (I thinkL).
Quote from: Brian Marks on February 20, 2009, 11:40:58 AM
Where should the spacers be positioned -- should they be equidistant between the center and the circumference of the baffle?
Not too critical, I'd say half-way is good.
Quote from: Brian Marks on February 20, 2009, 11:40:58 AM
I am planning on using 1/4" hardboard -- is this the best material (within reason, of course)? How about MDF?
Yes, especially the smooth (both sides) stuff. The smoother the better.
Quote from: Brian Marks on February 20, 2009, 11:40:58 AM
Should the outer part of the baffle be touching (flush with) the side of the barrel?
Yes.
Quote from: Brian Marks on February 20, 2009, 11:40:58 AM
Finally, I assume the baffle should be positioned so the opening of the elbow piece is as far from the "drop slot" as possible. Is this correct?
The back edge of the elbow should be aligned (roughly) with the end of the drop zone. So the opening of the elbow is well onto (about 2" in the case of 2-1/2" elbow and maybe 3-4" in the case of 4" elbow) onto the larger diameter of the baffle.
So if you are looking up from the bottom of the can towards the bottom of the baffle, you can just see the back-edge of the elbow. The rest of the elbow is concealed by the baffle.
QuoteYes, especially the smooth (both sides) stuff. The smoother the better.
Okay, thanks. I bought the 1/4" hardboard that is rough on one side, so I will try to find some that is smooth on both sides (or buy 1/2" mdf).
The tempered hardboard that is smooth on both sides is idea as it reduces friction. I find it at lumber yards (real, honest to God lumber yards, not home centers).
Here is a picture of the Delta 50-760, outfitted with a cartridge filter (Wynn Environmental 35A100SBOL (http://www.wynnenv.com/35A_series_cartridge_kit.htm)):
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Delta%20DC.JPG)
The barrel is a 30-gallon steel drum with epoxy phenolic liner (Global Industrial WG795275P (http://www.globalindustrial.com/gcs/prod/30044826/i/productInfo.web)). I cut out two port holes in the top using a jigsaw. This barrel is heavy duty-- probably overkill -- so it took some time to cut through the metal. The lid has a gasket and locks with a threaded bolt which is easy to remove. The hose input is a 4" universal fitting (Woodcraft 144654 (http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=144654&FamilyID=899)) and the output is a 4" PVC adapter (Woodcraft 142028 (http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=142028&FamilyID=899)). You can't tell from the picture, but the thicker part of the PVC adapter goes on the bottom side of the lid.
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Barrel.JPG)
Here is a view of the lid's bottom so far. I used the same 4" universal flange as I did for the top and oriented it so it looks like one continuous piece going through the lid. I attached both flanges with silicone sealant and four 8/32-3/4" bolts/nuts. The PVC adapter used for the output port is also held firm with silicone and was cut so that the height is approx. 1.25" on the bottom side.
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Lid%20bottom.JPG)
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Lid%20side.JPG)
Here is a PVC elbow I dry fitted to show how it attaches to the bottom flange (it fits so well I may not even need to glue it...which would allow me to tweak its direction). I will be cutting it so that the end of the elbow is perpendicular to the baffle and lid.
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Lid%20side%20PVC.JPG)
I will post more pictures when I complete the next step (construction of the baffle).
Okay, finally finished!
For the baffle, I ended up gluing two pieces of 1/4" hardboard together with the smooth sides facing out. I was thinking of coating them with polyurethane or something else, but decided that the surfaces were slick enough as is. As mentioned in the earlier post, I cut the PVC elbow so the edge was perpendicular to the baffle. Right now it is not glued to the lid's lower flange -- once I tweak the elbow's direction and am happy with the performance, I will probably make it permanent. The dowels are 3/4" in diameter and screwed in with #8 screws. I used some rubber washers on the top of the lid to make sure there are no leaks. One last thing regarding the baffle...I attached a piece of foam weatherstripping to the larger diameter of the baffle to make sure I have no gaps between it and the side of the barrel. Here is the baffle:
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Baffle1.jpg)
As for the connection between the separator and the Delta 50-760, I found some various connectors that make the connection nice and short. The only problem was that in order to make a straight/direct connection, the barrel needed to be centered below the Delta's 5" inlet (I removed the "Y" that came standard on the 50-760). Unfortunately, the barrel was just a bit too big, so I had to cut the stand's left horizontal brace to make the barrel fit:
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Brace.jpg)
I don't plan on moving the Dust Collector around, so I don't think the lack of this particular brace will matter much.
The first piece that I attached to the lid's output port was a 4" double-ended connector (Woodcraft 143660) (http://www.woodcraft.com/product.aspx?ProductID=143660&FamilyID=3947:), which makes a friction fit to the port:
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Connector.jpg)
Then, to connect this to the Delta, I found something called a Flexible Clay Pipe Coupling (Lowes 23438) (http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=23438-34146-RCC100&lpage=none), which is made of rubber and fits perfectly to both the Delta inlet and the double-ended connector. Here is a picture of the coupling in the down position (which is how it will be when I remove the barrel to empty the contents):
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Sleevedown.jpg)
Once the barrel is emptied and placed back underneath the Delta, the coupling slides up and is tightened:
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Sleeveup.jpg)
This achieves my goal of being able to put the separator underneath the Dust Collector and maintain 4" in all ports/couplings. I put everything together and it passed the first test -- no apparent leaks and the suction from my hose seems to be very strong (I assume there is some reduction, but it certainly seems minor). Here is how the finished product looks:
(http://home.comcast.net/~promark747/Finished.jpg)
I will report back once I have some stuff to "suck up." Thanks to Phil for the idea and plans -- I will be sure to make a donation.
Brian: Wow, thanks for the great write up and photographs. This is exactly what I have been wanting to see. I just bought a 50-760 at the KC wood show about 10 days ago and have started working on my separator. I bought the Lowes 30 gal metal trashcan and have been working on the lid. I have been struggling trying to figure out how to connect the lid to the DC, so I was really glad to see how you did that. I will see if my Lowes has one of the PVC to Clay couplings!
I would like to know what Phil and others think about the output (what goes to the DC) not being EXACTLY centered. I would rather NOT cut the brace on my brand new DC if I don't have to, but I have the same problem you did with the 30 gal trash can not being centered under the DC input port. I would say it is about 2-3 inches off center, but I haven't really measured it yet. Would this be a significant impact to the performance? Should I cut my brace to make sure it is centered or try it off center?
Thanks again for everyone's input
The stand is pretty sturdy even without the left horizontal brace...of course, for peace of mind you could always attached a new, longer brace above and/or below the one that is cut.
As for centering the outlet to the Delta's inlet, my barrel was tall enough that it would have been almost impossible to connect it to the Delta's inlet without raising the top part of the stand. (I did think about this...you can actually put some long dowels in the tubes/legs that would extend the height. Ultimately I decided to just cut the brace and go with the straight connection.) If your trash can is short enough, I would think that utilizing the Delta's standard "Y" dual input would allow you to have the can off center and you wouldn't lose any suction or airflow.
Brian,
Yeah, I saw someone else raised theirs with dowels. I also decided against that path just because I barely have height clearance now below my garage door rails when rolling it around. I just noticed in your pictures that you have the solid portion of your stand supporting your barrel. I assembled mine with the solid portion under the plastic bag because I thought it would need the support. Have you had any issues with that? I guess if the separator does its job, you won't have much going to the bag anyway.
I would still like to get feedback on how well this design would work if the connection to the DC was not exactly centered on the lid. I saw some other posts that said they had added Phil's baffle design to the Rockler / Lee Valley type of pre-separator lid with success, so I was hoping that I could get away with having mine a couple inches off center.
Quote from: rodelco on February 23, 2009, 09:08:37 PM
I would still like to get feedback on how well this design would work if the connection to the DC was not exactly centered on the lid. I saw some other posts that said they had added Phil's baffle design to the Rockler / Lee Valley type of pre-separator lid with success, so I was hoping that I could get away with having mine a couple inches off center.
A few inches off center is fine.
QuoteI just noticed in your pictures that you have the solid portion of your stand supporting your barrel. I assembled mine with the solid portion under the plastic bag because I thought it would need the support. Have you had any issues with that? I guess if the separator does its job, you won't have much going to the bag anyway.
Yes, those were my thoughts exactly. I switched it so the platform was under the barrel, and I think the bag will be okay suspended from the locking ring with no other support. If everything goes right, the bag should take a while to fill up and should only have the finer particles.
Phil: Thank you for responding. I plan to go ahead this weekend and put the holes in my lid for the 4 inch fittings, with the center one a few inches off center.
Brian: Thanks again for your detailed photos. I really like your idea of using the two angled fittings on the outside and inside for the input line. That looks like it should reduce turbulence significantly. I also bought one of those PVC to Clay pipe adapters - that also looks like it is going to work out great! That is exactly what I was trying to do, but couldn't find a way to do it until I saw your post.
Looking forward to getting this thing built and tested!
Thanks again everyone.
Quote from: Brian Marks on February 22, 2009, 03:35:09 PM
I will report back once I have some stuff to "suck up." Thanks to Phil for the idea and plans -- I will be sure to make a donation.
Brian I really like what you've done here. I've been toying with running with the Wynn filter as well. Have you had a chance to put the system to use as of yet? I'm interested to learn how much "flour" is making its way to the filter with the pre-catch in place.
Matt
Hi Matt,
Sorry, but I haven't had a chance to put it to some serious testing. As soon as I do, I will report back.
Thanks,
Brian
Quote from: mdwatkins on March 05, 2009, 12:30:50 PM
Quote from: Brian Marks on February 22, 2009, 03:35:09 PM
I will report back once I have some stuff to "suck up." Thanks to Phil for the idea and plans -- I will be sure to make a donation.
Brian I really like what you've done here. I've been toying with running with the Wynn filter as well. Have you had a chance to put the system to use as of yet? I'm interested to learn how much "flour" is making its way to the filter with the pre-catch in place.
Matt
Matt, I've been using a preseparator under my 50-760 for several months now. The main differences from Brian's is I'm using on old style Jet separator lid with the baffle hung below it and it's on a 30 gallon trash can. To be honest, I don't think my setup is optimized since the debris stream doesn't enter the system tangental to the barrel's side. That being said, I am happy to report that almost no "flour" is getting past the preseparator. After emptying the trash can several times, there appears to be less than a half cup of dust in the bottom of the plastic bag. I haven't taken the bag off to inspect what's up inside the Wynn filter but I did blow some compressed air through it recently, and no additional dust fell into the bag.
Hey guys nice job customizing your DC! I have the small Jet model, similar to that, which I may do a pre-separator for, but right now I just have a baffle inside the DC itself. Working well so far...
Those flexible rubber PVC connectors are great. I've used a couple straight ones around my shop to act as semi-quick releases for tubing runs across the floor, in case I need to roll anything by. I toss a 5/16 socket, or whatever size it is, on my driver to loosen and tighten the band clamps, makes quick work of it!
Question for you: I got mine used, and it didn't come with the Y fitting. Would anyone be willing to part with theirs? If not, it's all good, but I figured if they were just collecting dust, no punn intended!
sub-doood.... am i understanding you correctly in that you are using an "off the shelf" sparator lid with a baffle similar to the featured item?
QuoteQuestion for you: I got mine used, and it didn't come with the Y fitting. Would anyone be willing to part with theirs? If not, it's all good, but I figured if they were just collecting dust, no punn intended!
I would have gladly given it, but unfortunately I cracked mine when removing it.
It's ok, thanks!
My cartridge filter should arrive this week and probably go on this weekend. I have a smaller Delta DC - an AP-400 - with the same arrangement of inlet, blower and bags. So this post is very interesting.
I looked at the source of the drum listed and also a place I use for things like this - McMaster Carr - and I have a question. Has anybody tried a fiber drum for this application? McMaster has a 47 gallon fiber drum rated for 400 lbs of contents with a similar closure mechanism for $35.94 - or about half what a steel drum would cost. They also have several sizes so there should be one that would fit. A fiber drum should be easier to modify with woodworking tools. On the other hand, it might fall apart after awhile wasting the money and time.
My other question is just pros and cons of adding a baffle before the bag versus having the separate drum separator. The baffle seems a lot simpler but probably doesn't work as well? If it is just the ease of emptying the drum versus the bag, I would probably skip the drum but better separation might make it worth it.
Comments?
Advantage of using the baffle / pre separator is that debris does not impact your impeller, and there is a HUGE reduction in fines that your bearings and such are exposed to.
Advantage of using the baffle IN the inlet ring, saves valuable floor space, no loss of suction through the cyclone section prior to the impeller.
FWIW, and I am deeply concerned about floor space, I am building a pre-separator for my rig...
Quote from: dbhost on March 18, 2009, 10:20:42 AM
Advantage of using the baffle IN the inlet ring, saves valuable floor space, no loss of suction through the cyclone section prior to the impeller.
I would think it would also help with separation too, right?
jim d...what make and model cartridge filter are you planning to use? i also have an ap 400 and would like something better than the 5 micron bag mine came with, thanks.
Toolguy,
Highland Woodworking, and Rockler both carry 1 micron shaker felt bags in a few sizes. You COULD see which one of those fits your AP400.
The Wynn 35A cartridge filters *fit* with some modification to the DC. (See the application notes page http://www.wynnenv.com/notes.htm (http://www.wynnenv.com/notes.htm) for complete details.)
I have a 35A Spun Bond Poly on my HF 2HP DC and it was a real simple add on. 1 micron filtration, lots of surface area. I was honestly debating between the Delta 50-760 / Wynn combo or the HF-DC / Wynn combo. The HF honestly beat the Delta out on price...
dbhost.. the link appears to be non functional. can you provide any other info regarding these "wynn" filters?
Not sure why you can't click the link. Works fine here. Tested with Windoze XP with Firefox and I.E., also tested it on RHEL 5 with Firefox...
Do a Google search for Wynn Environmental. http://www.wynnenv.com/ (http://www.wynnenv.com/)They provide industrial filters for dust and fume collection.
And then take a look at Bill Pentz' web site. http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm (http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm) for more infrmation than you could ever want to know about the science and engineering of a dust collection system.
Bill Pentz is the most commonly cited expert in the field of woodworking workshop dust collection and control. He worked with the guys at Wynn Environmental to develop the 35A cartridge filter for your typical hobbyist woodworking dust collector.
The advantages of the pleated filter for a dust collector, are the same advantages that your car air filter is pleated. MUCH more filter area gets exposed to the air stream, allowing greater air flow while maintaining filtering efficiency. The filter efficiency of the Wynn 35A is sufficient to filter out the nasties you do not want to be inhaling for your health sake...
If you have a small metal working shop nearby, drag that thing in and see if you can't get that brace patched in the gap and welded up... Not super important, but would sure add an extra measure of professionalism to it...
I have seen a few of these set up like this... You may want to change that 90 degree elbow out for a 45 though, you already make almost 45 with the universal port anyway... and I think it may work a little better for you...
I really like my HF 2HP DC, but if I could have forked over the cash for one, I would have much rather had the 50-760 fitted with a Wynn and Thein baffle equipped barrel like you did...