J. Phil Thien's Projects

The more I look at their setup... it doesn't look like they have the baffle rotated quite right.  Looks like the port enters in the middle of the full-diameter section, not closer to one end.  Maybe I'm not looking at it right?

Got my copy of FWW today... flipped to the 'Soup up your DC' article, and when I saw the testers angling what looked a lot like a Thien baffle up inside the separator ring of a Jet DC I thought "those sneaky snakes, ripping off Phil's design!"  Soon after I saw they gave credit where credit is due, naming it a Thien baffle, etc. 

I was a little disappointed that they didn't seem to even touch on the possibility of using a stand-alone Thien separator, instead 'testing' two commercial units - a Super Dust Deputy, and a trash-can lid unit.  Bummer!

Hmmm... hadn't thought about in terms of things already being maxed out.  That does make a certain amount of sense ;)

FWIW... I was going back through that Wood magazine article from issue #182 that gets linked to a lot, and I may have found a partial answer to my question:

Quote...using a high-efficiency filter on the top and a nonporous plastic bag on the bottom added 40–80 CFM of airflow versus 30-micron bags. And although stepping up from a 5-micron to a 1-micron bag didn’t improve airflow in our test, it will boost your shop’s air quality.

From looking at their fan curves it appears that the tighter/finer filter bags (aftermarket 1 micron & factory 5 micron) and cartridge filter (factory 2 micron) all had about the same CFM and SP - the curves pretty much overlapped one another.

Short of anyone doing testing specifically with the Wynn cartridge filters instead of an OEM Jet cartridge... looks like that pretty much answers what I was asking - whether going from the factory Delta 1 micron felt bag to an aftermarket cartridge like the Wynn - or from the spun bond polyester to the nano fiber media - would yield a meaningful difference in the CFM/SP of the system, all other concerns aside.

Not enough to measure, apparently.

Part of why I was asking is that I've seen it suggested that one needs approximately a 1:2 ratio between filter surface area and air flow in CFM, which most filter bags fall far short of (Pentz).  Evidently I didn't read that *fully*... the reason appears to be less to increase air flow through a less restrictive filter, but more to prevent excessive loading during use and premature failure due to cleaning.  So there may still be incentive to 'upgrade' to a cartridge filter... though after building a good separator baffle to keep most of the crap *out* of the filter in the first place, that may go down somewhat ;)

Yeah... that was the bit that didn't make a lot of sense.  For all the hoopla made about the increase in air flow from a cartridge-type filter, and all the anecdotal accounts of 'I could feel a big increase in the suction after adding a Wynn filter!'... and then the results table seems to show basically no change / maybe a slight decrease (probably within instrument error) in air flow with the bag completely removed?

Very odd. 

Almost makes me want to duplicate some portion of the test just to see if the results would track or not.  I haven't seen my Fluke 33 ammeter in *years*, though and I would have to find/make a manometer ;)

Ah.  I remember wading through that (long) thread; I'd forgotten that the table had both amps and cfm in it.

Do you know of any similar testing/quantifying for the Wynn cannister filters?

Thanks,

Monte

So... I went and saw a man about a dust collector today... picked up what looks to be a lightly used 50-760 with some extra hoses and fittings, plus a 50-860 air cleaner for $200 total.  I'm happy  ;D

Anywho, over the last week or so I've been going back through various threads on different forums and looking at some of the nifty 'improvements' that people have worked on to these smaller machines like the HF 2hp, Delta 50-760, and Jet DC1100 units.  Wynn filters, various incarnations of the Thien baffle separators with 4, 5 or 6" piping, bell mouth discharge pipe, round-to-rectangular intake pipe, air straighteners, etc.

The stuff I've read seems to demonstrate a small but noticeable improvement with the last three or four modifications, at least judging by the current draw, if I read those threads right.  My understanding of that testing was that the assumption was/is that various changes resulted in higher and higher current draw, implying that the motor was working harder by pushing more air - except for the air straightener 'pipes' where it was theorized that the lower current read was due to the motor *not* having to work as hard due to less turbulence in the air stream entering the impeller housing.  While thats all well and good and I don't necessarily disagree on any particular point...  what I'm kind of curious about is if anyone has done testing of actual changes in either air flow or static pressure?  I realize that requires a different set of test equipment that is not exactly commonly available - but I am curious if anyone has attempted these more 'direct' measurements?

The other thing I've been wondering about... the Wynn 35 series filters seem to be commonly accepted as an improvement over the stock bags, even if they have supposedly identical ratings i.e. 1 micron factory felt bag vs. 1 micron pleated filter (assuming the factory bag rating is accurate), due primarily to the increase in air flow as the surface area increase from 20-30 square feet to 100 or more for the Wynn cannisters.  Again, maybe I missed it... but has anyone tested/confirmed the improvements in terms of air flow in CFM or SP at the intake, or even just current draw on the fan motor if nothing else?

TIA,

Monte

Thanks Phil... I was starting to think I'd breached some sort of taboo or another ;)

As mentioned... I've seen pics and details of combinations for say, the HF 2hp DC.  I can't recall seeing the internal baffle mod on a Delta 50-760, which is what I'm kind of curious about.

Dang.  Was it really that dumb of a question, or is everybody on vacation somewhere? ;)

Would there be a benefit to using a pre-separator upstream of the intake as well as a separator baffle inside the ring of a single-stage DC like a HF 2hp or 50-760?  I think I've seen people doing both on the HF unit, but not sure if anyone has gone that route on the 50-760 that I've seen.  How much gain (in separation) or loss (in static pressure) would there be to a setup like this?

Has anyone here tried rigging up a mounting system for a 5-gallon Thien separator similar to the bucket mount used for the Dust Deputy?  Seems like a fairly simple (and slick) setup to keep the separator and vac together while dragging around the shop...

Phil,

Thanks for this tip!  Coulda used it earlier  ;)  I used a router trammel jig that came w/ my Bosch 1617 EVS router to cut the circle... this has the downside of having to go around and around and around and around, lowering the bit a little each time.  Gets kind of monotonous, and the darned cord always gets tangled up to boot.  Being able to do a 'quick-n-dirty' cut w/ the jigsaw was something I hadn't quite thought of (it'd probably work even for the way I have been doing things), and being able to use the flat surface of the router table top should make life even easier.

Thanks again,

Monte

Quote from: KC7CN on January 09, 2008, 09:36:53 AM
...but you can effeminately see the cyclone turbulence.

ROTFLMAO!!!

Might I suggest a different word... like maybe 'definitely' or 'certainly'?  ;D

Got 'em coming.

Thanks,

Monte

Hello,

I'm looking at building a couple of these separators if I can get it to work... one for the house 'central vac' (big 16 gallon shop vac hooked to the central vac network) and one for the real shop vac (Ridgid 14 gallon unit).  Can't see spending $150 each for Dust Deputies or Mini Clearvues.  If all that goes well, I'll have to see about building a bigger one for a dust collector (yet to be purchased).

My first question is this:  Where did you get those PVC nozzles or whatever they are that you have bolted on the outside of the lid?  I've never seen anything like those on the shelf of any local hardware store or big box store.  I imagine regular PVC pipe of suitable size would work fine, but I have to admit, they look pretty slick and it seems like the flange would make sealing things up a bit easier.

TIA,

Monte

Interesting idea... I'm looking at getting a 1.5-2hp dust collector this spring (leaning heavily towards the Delta 50-760, but waffling between that and an upgraded HF 2hp unit) and putting a large trash can or drum separator in line with it.  I am worried about scrubbing, particularly if I went with the 50-760 (more cfm than the HF unit) as I'd be sorely tempted to mount the can directly under the blower so it could be on the same cart/footprint, all nice and neat.  Using a 6" hose for that short run (1 foot?) between the can and the blower might help some.