J. Phil Thien's Projects

Okay I got REALLY lazy on this. I was going to make the template out of the hardboard, but my brain kept telling me consider the weight, and, well... I ended up using 3/16" tempered hardboard for the baffle, 1/4" all thread, etc...

I used the barrel lid to insure a nice tight seal and simply used my jig saw, and rasp to cut the holes out, and hot glue to hold the PVC in place..

Here's the pics...

The connection from the separator to the DC.


The lid / baffle assembly. The fat end of the baffle did NOT line up the way I expected, but it doesn't seem to effect how it works. I sucked up about 30 gallons of cedar shavings as a test, and ended up with NOTHING in the bag...


The entire assembly. Even with the screwed up alignment of the baffle, it works great!


I cobbled this thing together in about two hours tonight, while talking with my wife, and neighbor about an upcoming hunting trip this year. All in all I honestly think I have less than an hour of real labor in this...

One too many times of getting nearly scared out my shorts with the sounds of big chunks, and metal bits from the floor sweep hitting the impeller has convinced me that I should remove the baffle from my HF DC, and build a proper pre separator... Now this was a project I abandoned earlier this year honestly because I was concerned with gobbling up floor space... Some more organization projects done, and floor space is still an issue, just not as pressing... Now I have my 30 gallon trash can, I have my plywood, and my all thread, plastic fittings etc... Why I am not cutting the circles tonight?

For those of you not reading the blogs at Lumberjocks, let me clue you in... I ran into an unexpected issue after some more than usually intense planing / jointing night before last. It would appear that I can fill up a 20 gallon trash can to overflowing, AND plug up a 12 gallon wet / dry vac before I even notice what is going on... (Okay my fault, I was paying attention to the work piece, NOT the dust bin). So the 30 gallon trash can stays in its temporary role as a scrap bin, and a 55 gallon open head plastic drum is coming my way this weekend from a local vendor. I found a local shop that recycles FDA approved containers on the cheap, and the container I am looking at is the same one I have seen used for a Thien cyclone elsewhere... Now for the question...

If possible, I want to utilize the plastic lid, and steel latching band that is on the barrel. I know these provide good solid seals for liquids, so air shouldn't be a problem. Is there any drawback to using the OE lid for this?

I am figuring on marking the lid using the fittings as templates, drilling on the inside of the markings, jig sawing the holes out, using my round rasp to make everything fit nice and tight, make my baffle, mount my baffle, and hot glue, or solvent weld them in place. (Can PVC be solvent welded to the plastic they use for these barrels?)

I will post pics as soon as it is done and tested... At the rate I am going that might be late next year though as I am working too many projects all at once...

After months, and months of excellent service, my Thien trash can separator quit, well, separating today.... I had to stop and clear blockage in the DC plumbing 2 or three times, and I think the sudden, and repetative stop, then hit of air and debris might have been the cause of the blow by. Anyone else experienced this? I can't WAIT to reorganize my shop. I am pretty sure this is a plumbing caused issue, not a Thien separator problem...

This seems pretty straight forward, but I want to double check my head here...

My thought process here is that a separate trash can separator / baffle keeps the chunks from hitting the impeller, which is designed for that purpose anyway... And to keep the fines out of the filter.

This comes at a cost though, of air flow, and floor space.

Both of which are worth gold in my shop...

After seeing the plum crazy HF DC with the baffle set up in it, I am now fairly convinced that baffle setup in the inlet ring is probably better for my setup than a separate trash can separator, as I can REALLY use the trash can for cutoffs. (I have an overflowing Home Depot 5 gallon bucket doing that job right now).

My questions are...

#1. Does mounting in the inlet ring instead of a trash can reduce the hit on air flow? It seems like it would by eliminating the whole in and out thing of the trash can, the associated flex hose, and at least one elbow.

#2. Does separation work as well mounted this way? If so, how can you tell?

I am looking for the best deal, to my door, for 2 dust collector remote switches. One can be a lighter duty (15 amp) switch as it will power the shop vac, the other must be able to handle the 20 amp max of the HF DC.

Where are you guys and gals getting yours?

And yes, this has everything to do with me stacking the shop vac on top of the DC...

Since I never could find a definitive yes or no answer on this question, almost all were telling me either, get the reducers, or it might fit, so I had to test and let you guys know. (And anyone who is using a search engine to find the answer).

Yes virginia, you CAN get 4" Dust Collector Hose to fit onto 4" S&D pipe, and MALE fittings. It requires a little bit of patience to work the hose on there, but it works.

Tested with 4" S&D pipe, and 4" S&D Street Elbow from Lowes, and 4" DC hose from Penn State Industries.

Okay the question is a little arbitrary, but not meaningless.

I see time and time again folks with 4" ducted systems, with reasonably well designed ducting, and the typical 1.5 - 2 HP DC (the average Taiwan job like HF, Shop Fox, Grizzly etc...), and a Wynn type cartridge filter.

I fully agree with Bill on eliminating tight turns, and rough hose as much as physically possible. And for the most part the folks I see setting up their 4" dust collection networks use a pair of 45s and a piece of pipe to make a 90 degree bend, OR they use sweep elbows.

From reading what I can manage to get through on Bill's site, it sure seems like no way, no how, not gonna happen with 4" duct, but I am seeing well laid out 4" systems that people are posting on, using those fancy pants air quality gauges and reporting good results. So what gives?

My tool selection radically limits my options for dust collection, and some of it has been modified, or will be modified VERY soon to accept larger dust collector air volumes.

The tools and ports in question are... (And yes, there are Thien Cyclones in the system here...)

Ryobi BT3100. 1 Factory 2.5" blade shroud port. 1 added 4" belly pan, 1 2.5" shark guard port. The setup here will be 4"x4"x2.5" wye in line with a 4" hose to the belly pan, and a 2.5" line from the 2.5" on the wye to the blade shroud. That will be pulled by the HF DC. An overhead 2.5" to the shop vac.  The shark guard 2.5" will get moved to the router accessory dust collection port as needed.

HF 14" Band saw with 6" riser block. Factory dust port removed. sheet lower dust collection blade cover similar to Pentz' illustration in the works. The idea is to cover as much of the lower blade, while making effectively a... well sort of funnel from the table, down into the lower blade guard. A 4" dust port is in the works for the lower blade guard. A 4"x4"x2.5" wye will be in line with the hose, the 2.5" port will be run up to the upper blade guide shroud. Again like in the Pentz diagram.

Northern Industrial 16 speed floor model DP / table. A 4" port will be run here, and as soon as I figure out how to connect it to the fence will be a happy camper...

Ridgid EB4424 belt / spindle sander. With the spindle, the 2.5" seems to work fine, with the belt, it sprays dust everywhere. Can I use the 4" to correct this?

Ryobi AP1301 planer. 2.5" port on the machine. No real way to attach 4", no real fines being created anyway.

Sunhill SM-150B benchtop jointer. 2.5" port. No real way to attach 4" Might be possible to hack away plastic, but probably not a good idea...

ALL freehand routing done outside on a makeshift workbench.

All sanders (Ryobi Corner Cat, Ryobi Quarter Sheet, and Skil Orbital) have 1.25 (ish) inch ports which are hooked up to the shop vac via reducers. I want a downdraft table hooked to the 4" and keep the 2.5" connector to the machines.

Am I on the right track, or do I really need to carve up my equipment and figure out a way to get 6" duct in here?

Basically, can 4" be effective when combined with 2.5"

Okay guys and gals, I have seen folks asking about this over, and over again, and I have seen Phil's answer that includes router table, or band saw and special jigs. I wanted to share with you my approach to the construction of a Thien Cyclone Separator lid. I have learned a LOT in the process of building my first one, and now the second is well under way. I hope this write up helps. I should note that this write up is done with the idea that it will be used for a 4" ducted system. If you are not using 4" adjust your sizes accordingly. Like Phil mentioned, there are no "plans" per se, and my solution may not work for your situation, but this is what I am doing to build my separator / baffles.

First things first, you need to obtain the materials to make your separator. I am using 3/4" MDF for mine since, honestly, it's what I have on hand. If had nothing on hand, I would have gone and grabbed some 3/4" sanded baltic birch, or Poplar plywood. For most builds a quarter sheet is really all you need, some need more than that... So here goes the shopping list.

        - 3/4" BB ply, or whatever material you chose. Pine is cheaper, MDF is even cheaper. Take your pick. If you go ply, get sanded, unless you want to sand your arms off.
      - 1/4" - 20 threaded rod. This is best purchased in 6' lengths. You will need to CAREFULLY cut this to shorter lengths making certain the threads are undamaged. Be comfortable with a file and possibly a thread chasing die.
      - 1/4" - 20 stop nuts A.K.A. Nylon insert nuts, nylock nuts, lock nuts etc... You will need 6 of these.
      - 1/4" fender washers. 12 of these
      - 1/4" - 20 standard nuts. 12 of these.
      - 4" S&D pipe nipple, OR 4" Dust Collection Hose Splice.
      - 4" S&D street elbow OR 4" Dust Collection 90 degree elbow.
      - Container. Your dust bin as it were. I am getting good results from galvanized steel trash cans.
      - Hot melt glue for a glue gun (and the glue gun) or clear silicone adhesive sealant.
      - sacrificial strip of lumber, or foam insulation or something to allow bit to cut through and not damage bit or floor. (or benchtop, or sawhorses, or... you get the idea I hope.)
      - 4" Dust collection hose, and clamps.

Next, you will need to assemble the tools needed for the project.

        - Router. Plunge or fixed base doesn't matter. Plunge is easier to start the cut with, a fixed base is a bit more dangerous to start the circle cut with.
      - Straight cutting plunge router bit. I used MLCS item #7751 3/8" dia, 1" cutting length, 1/2" shank plunge cutting straight router bit.
      - Rabbeting Router bit. I use MLCS #8366 9 piece rabbeting router bit, 1/2" shank. Set for a 3/8" deep rabbet cut.
      - Circle Cutting jig. I use the Craftsman branded version of the Milescraft 1203. If you don't have a circle cutting jig / edge guide for your router and want to buy this one, I STRONGLY advise you to immediately upon opening the box throw out the all plastic threaded knobs and replace them with 1/4" - 20 star knobs. I got mine from Rockler no problem...
      - Jig Saw with GOOD wood cutting blades. I have both a junk old Skil jig saw, and junk Black and Decker blades. They work, but are not ideal.
      - A means to sand the INSIDE of a circle. I am using an oscillating spindle sander, you can also use a sanding drum on a drill press to do the same job...
      - Work surface and clamps. I use junk sawhorses for mine and don't care if I cut into them.
      - Clamps to keep the work piece from moving on the work surface. 2 6 inch bar clamps work fine.
      - Hot glue gun if using hot glue.
      - Drill and drill bits.
      - Measuring and marking tools, specifically.
         - Sewing measuring tape. The flexible fabric kind to measure and mark the outside radius.
         - Straight edge with measuring scale. A carpenter's square SHOULD be enough, but might not be long enough.
         - Pencil.
         - LARGE drawing compass, or at the very least, a string.
         
Now that you have the stuff, we move on by measuring the top of the container, outside lip to outside lip. I am again assuming a trash can here.... An example.

   -Measure the outside lip to outside lip of the container in at least 3 different spots. Add those numbers up, and then divide by the total number of measurements to get your average. So for example your measurements are 19.5", 20", and 20.5" for a total count of 60 divide that by 3 for an average of 20. Now divide that number in half to get your radius (the space between the center point and the outside edge. That equals 10. Now that we have a radius, we know we want to overhang the edge just a hair to keep things from slipping in one way or another. Add 1/4" to that number. Now we have a radius of 10.25" right?
   - Measure and mark your sheet material. Say you are using a quarter sheet of MDF. Measure 21" up the long side, and using your square draw a line across, insuring it is square, measure the distances in a couple of locations to insure you have it right. You should have a sort of square, 24" wide x 21" high. Using your square line up the opposing corners of the square and draw a line corner to corner. This gives you the center of the square.
   - Drive the center point nail for the circle jig, and using your square, measure 10.25" from the nail, and draw a line.
   - Set the router up with the straight bit, and circle jig, Connect the jig to the center point, and adjust so that the INSIDE edge of the cutting carbide is touching the outside edge of the line you just drew. Lock the jig down.
   - With the work piece on a sacrificial piece, clamp it down so it won't move. Be careful to keep the clamps out of the path of the router.
   - If using a plunge router, set the plunge depth to 1/4", if using a fixed base, set the bit depth to 1/4".
   - Make your circle cut plunging or lowering the spinning bit / fixed base as neccesary.
   - Repeat the two steps above but adjusting depth for 9/16" depth, and finally 7/8", the final cut WILL protrude through the bottom. This is why we put it on a surface we can cut. This last cut you MAY need to move clamps around to keep the circle piece captive while you complete the cut.
   - Remove circle cutting jig, straight bit, and center point pivot hardware.
   - Repeat the above process but setting the radius of the circle jig to 9 - 7/8" for the baffle piece.
Now to cut the rabbet.
   - Set router up with rabbeting bit, set to make 3/8" rabbet, set bit depth no deeper than 1/2". I personally like doing 3/8" so that the distances are the same.
   - Clamp the circle to your work support. You WILL have to stop, restart the cut to move the clamps.
   - Make your rabbeting cut. I cannot succesfully do this via plunging, I simply sneak up on the cut and go to full depth riding on the bearing.
   - Test fit the lid. It SHOULD be a snug fit, if not, figure out what measurements were off and start over again.

Make the cutout for the baffle.
       - Using the sewing measuring tape, measure the outside circumference of the circle, divide by 3, and mark the start and end points on the outside edge of the disk.
      - Using your square draw a straight line from the marks you just made to the center point of the disk.
      - Measure, and mark 1.25" from the outside edge up on each of the lines you just drew.
      - using a compass, or string, pencil, and nail, draw an arc from the center point, around the long way to each of the 1.125" in marks you just made.
      - Using your jig saw, and possibly the drill / bits for starter holes, cut out the large radius notch.
      - Clean up with a sander if neccesary.
      
Cutting holes in the lid for the plumbing.
        - Center the pipe nipple / hose coupler and use it to draw the outline of the center hole.
      - use elbow and line it up to be as close as is comfortable to the edge close to the rabbet.
      - Use drill bit and create starter holes.
      - Use jig saw and cut out your holes from the lines you just drew being careful to stay inside the lines.
      - Using a spindle sander, or similar arrangement, "sneak up" on the fit for the plumbing so that you can just slide the plumbing through.
      - Sand the right side of the outlet of the elbow so that you can turn it in as close as possible to the side of the can.
      - Line up the baffle with the lid, and insuring that the holes and supports will not interfere with the plumbing, drill the 3 1/4" holes through both pieces at the same time. (This insures alignment.)
      - Insert elbow, align to get as close to the side as possible without touching, and hot glue in place, filling any gap between elbow and its mount hole with hot glue for a complete seal. Insure at least 1-1/2" protrudes for the hose to clamp to.
      - Cut threaded rod to 3 7" segments, clean threads on the ends. Install 2 normal nuts on each end, and a washer, allowing enough space to pass through the work pieces. Pass through from the inside, from the outside install washer, and lock nut.
      - When all 3 spacer rods are installed, adjust the nutsso that the distance is equal, and the elbow barely touches the baffle.
      - On the inside, screw the 2 nuts per side together in a "jam nut" configuration. This keeps it from backing off.
      - Insert nipple / hose coupler adjust to where the end is 2" from the baffle.
      - Hot glue the nipple / hose coupler in place the same way you did the elbow.
      - Connect inlet hose to elbow, clamp in place. If you are using S&D fittings, the fit will be snug, slip the clamp on, then work the hose onto the fitting and clamp it down. You are good to go. Same applies below.
      - Connect outlet hose to outlet, clamp in place.
      - Test.

Okay, I know I am probably in overkill territory here, but here goes nothing.

My shop is a 2 car garage with a funny 2' x 5.5' with a 7' 10" ceiling height, niche in the rear corner that is just perfect for placing dust collection equipment, except I now have a lot of equipment to jam into a little space.

The situation is I know have a Harbor Freight 2HP DC, which I am building a 30 gallon 4" Thien trash can cyclone separator for, along with my existing Ridgid Wet / dry vac / 20 gallon Thien trash can cyclone.

Now the question du jour is how do I get all this stuff into this space?

I have a "cyclone stacker" built that houses my 20 gallon / wet dry vac setup. I am wondering if I can get both the 20 AND 30 gallon units in stacked under the vac. Since I use a remote for switching power anyway, I am not worried about reaching the vac every time...

Help with some design ideas please. I am coming up a bit dry...

This weekend I am buying myself a late Christmas present, a Delta 50-760 DC, I have a 30 gallon galvanized trash can ready to go, and even have the disk and baffle for the separator lid cut out, and the rabbet cut. (Used 3/4" MDF and 1/8" hardboard respectively). I have the spacer studs, nuts, and washers ready and waiting, and I am wondering about the plubming...

On my 2.5" model, I simply used a 2.5" hole saw to cut my holes. What do I use for the 4" stuff? I am thinking about drilling out a pilot hole, and using my jigsaw and a rasp to make the holes.

Do I use actual 4" S&D non perforated PVC for this? I am thinking a street elbow, and a simple nipple to connect the hoses to via clamps. I want everything as straight as possbile...

I am considering coming in through the side of the can, but how do I get the inlet in over the baffle to allow for the cyclonic action reliably? Basically, how would this be indexed?

I finished the lid up Friday, but due to time constraints wasn't able to snap any pics until this morning. My job and my in laws had other plans for my time this weekend.

The completed cyclone separator lid installed on a 20 gallon heavy galvanized trash can. The hoses both in and out are Ridgid Tug A Long hoses, I used the small end on the both sides of the side that goes to my dust collection system.


The functional view of my cyclone. You may notice that my elbow is mounted backwards on the "wrong side" compared to Phils pic. That was by accident. I drilled the holes for the spacers with the thick part of the separator going the wrong way. It works well this way, but looks funny when you look at Phils pics...
Notice the spacers are nothing more than 1/4 -20 all thread with washers and nuts...


Tonight I am removing the screws from the hose adapters and gluing them straight up with hot glue. I want to eliminate the tips of the screws from inside the cyclone. My shop isn't dog hair free, and that tends to get hung on those tips...

Sorry about the pic host. I have been using Webshots since my ISP hosting kind of stinks...

Okay, I am gathering the goodies for my Thien Cyclone. So far I have...

1 @ 20 gallon THICK walled 20 gallon Galvanized trash can. I don't recall them being this thick! Got it at Ace for $16.00
1 @ 2" PVC Street elbow. (Slip male x slip female). Never have figured out how to trim this. I guess grind away the side that sill touch the can right? Hey Phil, or someone else that has this working, can you post some close up pics of the modified elbow so those of us that are completely confused can get a clue?
1 @ 1/2" white oak plywood disk for the baffle. (I meant it to be the lid, but forgot to account for the actual size of the bit, so it ended up small...
1 @ 24"x24" 3/4" Baltic Birch Ply for lid.

Remains to be purchased...

4 @ 1/4-20x6" all thread. (I couldn't find carriage bolts longer than 3", Can someone tell me where to get 4.5" long 1/4" carriage bolts?)
16 @ 1/4" fender washers
8 @ 1/4-20 nylon insert lock nuts.
16 @ 1/4-20 standard nuts.
2 @ Peachtree 2.5" Dust Collector Ports item #387 if I recall right... (Peachtree is open in my other tab right now...).
Rabbeting router bit. I don't own one, yet... Probably tap MLCS for that...

So far I have busted a Craftsman 1/4" shank 1/4" straight cutting bit making the disks... What a PITA!

Question RE making the lids. Is it possible to use the original metal lid from the trash can for the upper part?

Any advice for me before I continue on and totally screw this up?