This weekend, I upgraded my Delta 50-850 by adding a Wynn 35A100SBOL poly filter as well as Phil's baffle. Overall, things went smoothly for the baffle install. I had more grief figuring out how to attach the filter to the DC (the turnbuckles Wynn provides are too small). I finally decided to use bungie straps on the outside as someone else here had reported.
I fired up the new configuration last night and gave it a whirl (so to speak). Overall, the suction is much improved over the previous clogged 30micron bags. I'm using the clear lower bags that Wynn included with the filter so one gets to see the wood chips swirling off the baffle. I do see some swirling dust down into the bottom of the bag even when no new chips/dust are being pulled in, I assume this is what is termed "scrubbing?"
After collecting about ~2gal of chips, I took off the cannister and peered inside. Its not spotless, by any stretch of the imagination, but its nowhere near clogged. Since I dont have any experience with running the cannister without the baffle, I cannot say what it would have looked like without it. I know that with my old bags, they were covered in caked up dust...
I know this post is somewhat vague, but does this seem to be typical performance? Just trying to determine if I need to tweak anything to reduce the amount going up into the cannister...
Thanks
Andy
I haven't looked at my filter since adding the Thien baffle to my Harbor Freight DC, and it had been used for over a year without one, so it already had been caked and cleaned a few times. That said, before I had the baffle, 2 gallons of chips and dust would have put enough in the canister to where I could hit the sides after turning it off and see stuff falling into the lower bag. It sounds like you only had a light dusting inside the canister, so I'm betting you're getting results similar to the rest of us. Even without the baffle, your lungs will be thanking you for the switch to the Wynn filter instead of 30 micron bags. ;) With the baffle, you won't need to clean the filter NEARLY as often. (At least that's been my experience.)
Yeah, I totally got the Wynn filter to improve the capture efficiency of the fines. I'm definitely already seeing huge improvement there. :)
Like others, I decided to try Phil's Baffle design primarily to cut down on the amount of material getting blown into the canister to 1) reduce the frequency of cleans 2) protect the filter from getting damaged by wood chips. What is saw inside the filter was mostly fines, with a few larger curls...
So is it typical to see a little vortex/tornado of fines swirling in the bottom collection bag?
How snugly should 120deg portion fit against the side of the DC? I got it really close, but I wonder if it would benefit from a strip of small weatherstripping to seal it tight?
It should fit snugly, but weather stripping isn't necessary.
The baffle needs to be BELOW the inlet, not above the inlet.
For best performance, the ring of the DC should have a funnel with a 6-8" opening in the middle. If there is no funnel, you can make an outlet tube.
When testing the unit, it is important not to feed material at an abnormally high rate. No cyclone works well when "stuffed," they all need an adequate ratio of air to debris in order to separate. Dropping a hose into a bag full of sawdust isn't a good test.
It may make sense to post an "above" and "below" picture of what you have so I can make sure there aren't any problems.
Thanks Phil..
The baffle is about 1" below the inlet of the DC ring. There is also a funnel incorporated in this design. I dont recall exactly what the ID of this funnel is, but I can measure tonight and post pictures.
I dont think I stuffed the DC during my test, but admittedly it was a contrived experiment (I poured abotu 2gal of chips on the floor and sucked them up over 2min or so). This weekend I'll get a chance to run the DC using real world conditions...
Andy
Seeing some dust swirling around in the bottom of the bag is OK I think. The "scrubbing" effect is when the bag gets fuller,(is that a word?), that swirling is much higher in the bag, and can kick dust up into the upper bag/filter, ADDING to the clogging, impacting suction, etc. So the baffle prevents true scrubbing, but there's always going to be air movement which may swirl some dust around.
I took pictures tonight... the funnel has an opening of 11.5" ID. The DC ring itself is about 19.5" OD. Here's two images showing the relationship between the inlet and the baffle:
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d31/mb2006/topview.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d31/mb2006/closeupofinletandbaffle.jpg)
I also took pictures of the amount of dust/chips in the filter as well as the bag so you can see the relative amounts. Here's the total amount of chips I vacuumed up in my experiment:
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d31/mb2006/woodchips.jpg)
and here's a view of the chips that lodged in the filter:
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d31/mb2006/chipsinfilter.jpg)
Keep in mind this was a brand new filter...
Interesting, the amount in the filter does seem on the high side, with large chips, too. Looking at the baffle, the gap between the baffle and the ring seems smaller than 1-1/8". Is that just an optical illusion?
You may need to run it real-world for a little while to get a better feeling. You can always adjust the size of the drop-zone on the baffle, and/or add an outlet tube (6-8") down the center of the funnel.
the gap is 1.125"... must be a illusion...
I think I'll run it this way for awhile... If I were to make an outlet tube, would you suggest making a giant mdf "washer" which would fit in the top of the DC ring and then attach the outlet tube to that? how far down should that tube extend into the DC ring? How far up into the canister filter should it go? I assume this could significantly lower the CFM since it would restrict the air trying to escape through the canister filter.
Also, any guidance on adjusting the drop zone? I assume you mean make it bigger than 1.125"?
Quote from: expo on April 22, 2009, 07:55:27 AM
the gap is 1.125"... must be a illusion...
I think I'll run it this way for awhile... If I were to make an outlet tube, would you suggest making a giant mdf "washer" which would fit in the top of the DC ring and then attach the outlet tube to that? how far down should that tube extend into the DC ring? How far up into the canister filter should it go? I assume this could significantly lower the CFM since it would restrict the air trying to escape through the canister filter.
Also, any guidance on adjusting the drop zone? I assume you mean make it bigger than 1.125"?
Lots of creative ways to make an outlet tube w/ donut that sits in the funnel. An 8" tube that sticks 1" below the current level of the funnel would be ideal. Yes, it will reduce CFM, but not as much as you'd think. Yet, there are no free lunches. ;D
The drop done can be expanded beyond 1-1/8" if you're finding lots of larger shavings up in the filter. Larger shavings in the filter often indicate that they're coming through in clumps that are too large to fall through the zone (especially if you work w/ lots of soft woods). In those cases, increasing to 1-1/2" can be helpful.
But like you said, I'd run w/ it as-is for a while.
Quote from: expo on April 22, 2009, 07:55:27 AM
the gap is 1.125"... must be a illusion...
Sure you made the gap 1.125 and not the diameter 1.125 smaller?
You almost got me! I had to think twice, but then remembered I used a shop-built trammel, and i reduced the radius by 1.125...
;D
Expo,
The pic posted is something I wonder if anyone has ever tried.
Not the best as far a drawings but I think you can get the concept.
It could be considered as a neutral vain but not quite.
If the inlet to the separator were to be taken from round to a rectangle it would cause the air stream to ride the side of the cylinder. Also if it is pointed downward at a slight angle, it would cause the debris to enter the bag instead of the filter.
This is my logic on this - when a round stream hits into a flat surface the air stream will mushroom out pushing the stream upward, downward and inward. If the stream is forced to ride the surface sort of in a flat stream it will reduce or eliminate the mushroom effect, thus causing the debris to drop downward past Phil's baffle and into the bag, allowing much better separation.
Also note the position of the outlet is at the end of the baffle solid area instead of the beginning. I did this on my top hat version and seems to work great.
I hope this make sense...
Interesting idea... I think the main concern would be maintaining the area of the tubing when transferring it to rectangular.
I have a Delta 50-850 DC and I am getting similar results. I made a separate post in the forum today.
After a moderate amount of use, there is more dust in the filter than I expected. Initially it appeared that it was just larger shaving from my jointer, but upon further inspection it appears than a fair amount of fine particles are stuck to the inside of the filter. Note that I also have a Wynn 35A filter.
I'm beginning to think that the large diameter (11.5") funnel in the DC is playing a role. I'm not quite sure how I would construct an "outlet tube" as a means to reduce the diameter of this opening. I'm guessing that I would also need to lower the baffle a bit in order for this to work.
On a somewhat related note, one addition I made to the DC while I was overhauling it was to add a strip of weatherstripping to the outside of the DC where the metal band clamp goes to hold the collection bad in place. I used 3/4" wide, 3/16" (I think) think rubber weatherstipping. This doesn't compress all that much and provides a very tight seal around the collection bag. This was a great addition, since I would often discover that dust was escaping around the rim of the collection bag. I picked up the weatherstripping at my local Ace Hardware store. Note that the thickness of the weatherstipping is important, since if it was any thicker I would not have been able to latch the clamp around it. Turns out that 3/16" is perfect, and I can get the clamp on by using the last notch in the clamp.
What about making a large MDF washer to rest into the upper portion of the steel separator? You could use weatherstripping for the seal with the steel separator. Then the opening could be custom sized or fitted with an outlet tube... Anyone know where you can find a foot or so of 6-8" PVC pipe?
How did you attach the filter to the steel separator? (Wynn supplied turnbuckles were way too small) After reviewing several options, I just bungied it down from the outside...
I attached the Wynn filter with a ratcheting tie-down ... like you would use in the back of a truck to keep your cargo held down. This is only a temporary solution until I come up with a better idea. I was going to use bungie cords, but I could decide how I wanted to attach them to the top of the filter (if at all). I was thinking I would cut a round piece of MDF to sit on top of the filter, then attach the bungie cords to that, holding it down. I don't like to put holes in things (filter, DC, etc.) when I can avoid it! :)
Anyway, right now my tie-down is hooked to the lower legs of the DC. Just up and over and just enough pressure to keep it in place. The metal frame of the filter seems to bend easily, so I didn't want to force the issue.
Yes, the turnbuckles that came with the filter are far too short. I looked everywhere for some shorter turnbuckles, but I've found nothing. The nice thing about using bungie cords or a tie-down is that you can remove the filter without removing the baffle, which is a major plus in my book.
Couldn't you use a small block of wood on either the filter or the DC as a spacer for the turnbuckles?
Expo - I'm working through this, too, and am now thinking about putting a donut over the funnel with a cylinder 6" in diameter extending through the funnel by 1". I'm thinking that a 3# coffee can (now 39 oz) would work. It's already 6" in diameter and could be sized to any depth you need. Nail it to the inside of the donut and you're done. I'm going to try it tonight or tomorrow, but if anyone else gets there first, please let me know. :)
Quote from: Greg McCallister on May 12, 2009, 04:45:38 AM
Couldn't you use a small block of wood on either the filter or the DC as a spacer for the turnbuckles?
Yes. You could do that.
I'm not interested in using turnbuckles to attach the filter, though. Being able to remove/clean the filter without removing the baffle is the deciding factor.
Rhino,
I understand your current setup works. remember though all it takes is a small amount of leakage on the filter side to spread dust all through your shop.
If the system is working properly, the filter should not need cleaning - just a few raps on the side once and a while though I rarely do that. If you are getting that much debris in the filter something is wrong in your setup.
I don't have dust all over my shop. As far as I can tell, the tie-down (or bungie cord) method to attaching the filter to the DC is just as good as the turnbuckles. Anyway, the DC and filter appear to be sealed up quite well. No thin layer of dust all over my tools or any of that sort of thing.
You're right -- if the system is working properly my filter should not need frequent cleaning. However, that is not the case. I attribute this to the larger funnel opening in my particular DC, which is discussed here and in another thread. It certain effects how the baffle performs. Phil gave a great suggestion about creating a outlet tube as a means to reduce the diameter of this opening. I intend to try that as soon as I have some time to spend in the shop. I don't think the manner in which I attached my filter to the DC contributes to this problem.
I was looking at the mods that most have done on this setup and wonder if you added an extension ring of sheet metal or poly to the bottom to extend the height allowing Plil's baffle to be lower and of course, as already suggested, to modify the center (outlet) ring smaller and down towards Phil's baffle. Not the best of drawings but I think you can get the idea.
This would allow the air stream to circle around the cylinder below the inlet, thus avoiding air stream crash, which may be what is causing the debris to enter the filter instead of dropping down in the lower bag. Also you could be able to see above the baffle if poly is used and the lower bag is clear which may give more insight as to what is transpiring in the cylinder.
What do you think?