Is using a Separator with a 1HP PSI DC1B AND in a DC System a waste of time?

[DominicG]

Back in 1999 I bought a Penn States DC1B 1Hp DC. It's reported flow through is about 850CMF @ 6.5psig

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/DC1BXL-1M.html?prodpage=1DC

Shortly after I got it, I built a trashcan cyclone on my own design. Think of the upper part (what we used to call the "tube shell") of your typical cyclone with no cone. It sits right on top of a 20 1/2" dia steel trash can. Initially it WILL separate the chips from the fines. But as the debris builds up in the trashcan,  it would suck it right up. Anyway, I've wanted to built a better separator and saw the designs being used here. So I drew it up and was getting ready to build it.

HOWEVER, I have a small shop with a very simple dust collection installed. It's just a couple of runs of 4" sewer pipe that lead to 3 locations. One leg has the "cyclone" separator in line and it's used for my router table, planer, jointer, and lathe. Another run goes to my Drill Press and Tablesaw. While the third goes to my bandsaw. Other than the one going to the bandsaw, I don't think that any of the legs are longer than 10 to 15 feet. And yes, the elbows are kept to a minimum. Over all it's been in use for about 10 years or more and it works OK. But it does leave dust behind.Still, it's better than nothing

My original plan was to install my newly built Thien Separator in front of the 1HP DC and then having ALL of the lines go through it. After some thought I am reconsidering this. From what I remember from my days in the dust collection business, a Cyclone will steal about 2 Psig from your DC. So I would be reducing the performance on all of the pipe runs. And with this little DC, I'm not sure that's a good way to go.

Now let's complicate matters.  :) :) I have a Reliant 3HP DC that I got when Woodworker's Warehouse went out of business back in 2002 (?). It's pretty much New In Box (NIB). But I have two issues with it. First, it has the crappy stock filter bags. And to upgrade it to 1 Micron bags will cost me over $200. I also called Wynn Filters and got a price for (2) of their canister filters for this unit. It would cost me just over $350 to upgrade to those filters and even then I'd have to install a Thien baffle to make them more efficient.

Secondly it takes up more than DOUBLE the amount of room that my DC1B takes up. And in my garage/shop, floor space is at a PREMIUM.

So, knowing that I want to install this in conjunction with my small dust collection pipe system, I guess my questions are:

1.) Am I correct in assuming that installing the separator BEFORE by little 1HP DC will make it less efficient (in regards to conveying power) for my dust collection pipe system? In other words, it will be so much power loss that it will make matters worse.

2.) Would I be better served by selling the Reliant (and maybe my 1HP DC1B) and buying a 2HP DC like the PSI DC DC2000B?

3.) OR would it be a better idea to upgrade the 3HP Reliant with (2) new filter bags AND install a Thien Baffle in each of the 2 drums?

Thanks,
Dominic

[jdon]

Based on what I've gathered about DC and related topics:

1) When you state "before" the separator, do you mean as a standalone build, as opposed to one that's built inside the DC (just below the intake port and above the waste bag? If so, I suppose it has some additional effect on performance, but I can't say how much. OTOH, with it before, you avoid most of the chips (and more dangerous pieces) from reaching the impeller. Also, emptying a trash can is usually easier than those bags.

2) IMO, there's not much readily available (certainly for the price) that can beat a Wynn filter for collection efficiency, including the 1 micron bags on the 2 hp PSI. I haven't looked much, but am not aware of any bag that matches a pleated cartridge filter. IIRC, the Wynn has over 200 sq ft of filtering area, which improved performance from reduced back pressure.

3) Unless you don't have the space, I'd think hanging onto the Reliant would be preferable to the 2 hp PSI. If you can't afford two Wynn filters to set it up, maybe you could get one for now, and do one of two things:

a. If the Wynn would fit your DC1B, use it there for the time being; it would improve performance, and maybe even offset putting in a Thien. When your budget allows, get a second Wynn, and put both on the Reliant.

b. Get one Wynn filter and install it onto one of the housings. Put a baffle into the "y", to block air flow to the other housing. Even with using only half of the collector, with the surface area of the Wynn (compared with bags), you're still probably ahead with air flow. (Just a thought, and based on no personal experience).

Hopefully, those with more knowledge will either verify or contradict the above. just my .02  :)

[DominicG]

1) When you state "before" the separator, do you mean as a standalone build, as opposed to one that's built inside the DC (just below the intake port and above the waste bag? If so, I suppose it has some additional effect on performance, but I can't say how much. OTOH, with it before, you avoid most of the chips (and more dangerous pieces) from reaching the impeller. Also, emptying a trash can is usually easier than those bags.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. A stand alone separator/cyclone will rob the system of pressure/airflow to the tune of at least 2 psig. If I install a Thien baffle in my DC1B I'm not sure I'd get much of a benefit from it. The DC is STILL underpowered for my pipe run.

2) IMO, there's not much readily available (certainly for the price) that can beat a Wynn filter for collection efficiency, including the 1 micron bags on the 2 hp PSI. I haven't looked much, but am not aware of any bag that matches a pleated cartridge filter. IIRC, the Wynn has over 200 sq ft of filtering area, which improved performance from reduced back pressure.

I got a quote from AFF for (2) OEM replacement filter bags at $156. From what I understand they are sized a bit bigger than they need to be and will be a tiny bit more efficient. The Wynn Filters are $177 each and that means $354 for (2). That's double my budget!

3) Unless you don't have the space, I'd think hanging onto the Reliant would be preferable to the 2 hp PSI. If you can't afford two Wynn filters to set it up, maybe you could get one for now, and do one of two things:

a. If the Wynn would fit your DC1B, use it there for the time being; it would improve performance, and maybe even offset putting in a Thien. When your budget allows, get a second Wynn, and put both on the Reliant.

b. Get one Wynn filter and install it onto one of the housings. Put a baffle into the "y", to block air flow to the other housing. Even with using only half of the collector, with the surface area of the Wynn (compared with bags), you're still probably ahead with air flow. (Just a thought, and based on no personal experience).

When I first called Wynn Environmental I ended up speaking to Dick Wynn (!) about this very subject. He recommended that I DON'T go this route. I believe that he based this upon the cost for a filter sized to handle the doubled airflow as well as the time I would spend modifying the DC to make this work. In the end he pointed me the article in FWW that detailed Phil's baffle set up.