I found a new impeller in a thread for my dust collector according to a thread on hear, its the grizzly 12 3/4" x 3 1/2" part number P1028Z2010 and they happened to be on back order till may but june or july is more likely according to the lady at grizzly. They also happen to be 110 bucks plus shipping and tax! They were only 80 dollars not too long ago according to that thread.
So i have a couple of questions, since there were so many different versions of the hf dc, how do i know if it will fit first off? My arbor looks to be 3/4". I have a Seco 2hp DC that has a 3phase motor unfortunately:-( as well with a plastic 12" Impeller but the arbor looks to be 13/16" with a different arbor key so no dice.
Is there anybody else who has a larger Impeller that fits the HF DC? And hopefully it wont costs as much as the grizzly?
Or is there anywhere is to get the grizzly impeller for cheaper?
I just built my seperator with 6" ports so I wouldn't have to build another one in the future and I would like as much air flow as posible, however, its doing really well with my wimpy 10" Impeller. Hehe Any help would be appreciated.
Not sure myself. I would be interested in knowing though. A guy with some sheet metal skills and time on his hands could make a few bucks knocking 12" impellers for HF DCs out as long as they were well made and affordable...
That's a fair question...
Considering the HF DC runs for, and let's average it because Harbor Freight sales are all over the place these days, but let's say $150.00. I would think something along the lines of $50.00 to $75.00 would be in the range for that...
You would have to knock out quite a number of impellers at $75 a pop just to recover design and tooling costs. Rotating equipment, especially a well balanced bladed and vaned impeller, is a lot more complex than it appears, in my experience.
I shudder to think of a number. It should be high to say the least...
Just like with knocking out production volumes in woodworking, it should be all in setting up the jigs though. If you can knock them out for say $25.00 a piece your cost, then sell them for $50.00 to $75.00 each...
If you can guess, I am taking a W.A.G. here...
I agree with you, Chuck. Intricate machinery, if well made, requires a lot of labor to manufacture, despite all the tooling - and even robotics employed today. You cannot compete as an individual against industry that can mass produce.
I once built a prototype replacement steering wheel for a vintage Mopar muscle car made out of solid walnut, with the hope building a lot of them and turning a decent profit. It was an exact duplicate of the cheap imitation plastic original. Lots of angled tenoing jigs, circle templates, glue-up jigs, etc. and also many hours of labor. It generated a lot of activity on ebay - eventually selling for $410. I made a couple of more, but never got my labor costs above about $2.00/Hr.
How is it then that Lee Styron can make a profit with his Shark Guards? They are an excellent, small shop built product that is IMHO second to none. And I am relatively certain that he isn't farming his production out to some sampan factory in China.
Yes I know he charges more than $75.00 for his guards, but they at least to me, appear to be far more complex than an impeller for a dust collector...
Quote from: dbhost on July 20, 2011, 10:57:48 AM
How is it then that Lee Styron can make a profit with his Shark Guards? They are an excellent, small shop built product that is IMHO second to none. And I am relatively certain that he isn't farming his production out to some sampan factory in China.
Yes I know he charges more than $75.00 for his guards, but they at least to me, appear to be far more complex than an impeller for a dust collector...
A piece of rotating equipment, especially a bladed, vaned impeller, is far more complex than it may appear, that's why. We're talking about fairly sophisticated design, tooling, parts manufacturing, assembling, balancing, and testing processes.
To add on to Bill's comments...
Having spend much of my manufacturing career in sheet metal fabrication, I learned a few simple lessons (in some very hard ways).
As long as you only have to fabricate parts in one plane at a time, there may be many steps, but each one is relatively simple and economical. Example: Pipe bending - It is not much different or costly to make a 30/45/60 or 90 degree bend. Making a series of bends is just a series of successive, repetitive steps.
Making changes in two planes gets to be more complicated, but is still definable steps. Example: Folding a box and lid (like a shoebox) - The box is taller and the lid is larger( to cover the box), but each has the same number of steps. If it is 6" or 16" the work is still pretty much the same.
However, when you need to make changes in three dimensions simultaneously, it has to be physically mocked up to determine production tolerances - or in today's world, it is modeled by computer. To actually fabricate parts with three dimensional changes is orders of magnitude more difficult both in the costs of design and development and in the equipment required to produce it.
Shark Guards are a prime example of taking a sophisticated application and reduce it to simple, profitable (I hope) production. I am sure that there was a lot of head-scratching and hair-pulling to come to his actual production model.
As far as your steering wheel goes, you have to determine the price the market will bear... At $400, it probably won't sell at PEP Boys, but marketed through car-clubs, it may go for $500. How much effort will you go through to earn $4-500? If you can't reduce the effort and investment to your satisfaction - you found out - it isn't worthwhile...
Fortunately, most of us are doing it for the personal satisfaction and admiration of those who matter to us. If it was supposed to be financially profitable, it probably wouldn't be as fun...
Enjoy!
Jim
does anyone know of anyone who has actually changed the impeller on their hf unit? i cant find that original thread i spoke of in my first post unfortunately. the impeller is in stock at grizzly and i am ready to do it, but i just want to double check the shaft diameter to make sure it fits before i do it. i cant take my dc apart right now as im using it nonstop lately, which is why now is the right time for me to upgrade. i just ordered the wynn paper filter and a 6" bellmouth for my separator so i should be more efficient already but the impeller would be killer.
I can't speak for the Grizzly impeller, but i know for a fact that the 12" Rikon impeller fits my HF DC perfectly. The vanes of the impeller curved in the opposite direction, but i have increased airflow, and decreased noise. The Rikon impeller is about $60 + $20 shipping.
Impeller designs are quite unique. Sometimes the vanes appear to go 'backwards' and other times 'forward'.
They share one common feature though...
If you reverse them, they still blow air in the same direction.
This is particularly important with 3phase motors since the phasing controls the direction of rotation.
If you think that the impeller is designed to go the 'other' way, open the motor connections. There is almost always a schematic to show you what wires to change to reverse direction. Take measurements, first, then reverse and compare. The impeller's 'correct' direction will be 20-30% more efficient than 'backwards'.
Hope this helps!
Jim
So, you'd buy the Rikon machine for $399 instead? The two machines are nearly identical, other than the 12" impeller vs. the 10" or so on the HF. The HF machine can be had for $150 or so. Add $80 for the 12" impeller, and $230 or so is still way cheaper for the same equipment. Top hat separators are cheap to make, so on a small budget, one can have a machine that rivals much more expensive equipment.
Which model is that?
That's what i thought it might be. So, somehow a $400 DC that needs almost as many mods as the HF is somehow better because it costs more? I don't get it. The only components that one could maybe argue is better is the motor & impeller. In todays make it cheaper manufacturing that may or may not be the case. Plenty of these HF DC motors have lived long lives. Otherwise you have a DC that still needs a separator, a better filter, a larger intake (to collect fines), etc. You've already spent more just for your DC than i paid for my DC, the impeller, my separator (free-cycled material), and my 6" S&D piping.
The HF DC is a long time recognized diamond in the rough. Not everything HF sells is junk. Would i buy most of the stuff they sell? No. But as with anything else, prudent shopping at HF can save some serious coin on items that the chinese copy and sell at ridiculously low prices under generic names. (bar clamps, diamond sharpeners, drill chucks, some of the HVLP guns rival those costing much more, air hose (goodyear brand), air nozzles, air fittings, hose reels, and quite a bit more.)
It's not my intention to pick a battle or anything, i just don't see anything about the Delta unit that justifies $400, and i think you've written off the HF unit based solely on its price. Price can be an indicator of quality, however, there are products that are severely overpriced. DC's are just that, overpriced. So, one being sold at a reasonable price doesn't necessarily make it junk. Truth be known, the HF and Delta units probably have very similar costs of manufacturing.
Quote from: polarys425 on November 14, 2011, 04:24:18 PM
I can't speak for the Grizzly impeller, but i know for a fact that the 12" Rikon impeller fits my HF DC perfectly. The vanes of the impeller curved in the opposite direction, but i have increased airflow, and decreased noise. The Rikon impeller is about $60 + $20 shipping.
There are two performance specs for DC's that are equally important, i.e. CFM and SP. If you reverse the vanes on the impeller, you will affect one or both of those characteristics, and the laws of physics will apply. That means if you increase one, you will most likely decrease the other. Now, having said that, it is not out of the question that the original impeller is so poorly designed and engineered that another impeller might improve both CFM and SP. But, I wouldn't be betting much on that outcome.
So, if you really have increased your airflow there is a good chance you have lost some static pressure, and without the use of test instruments you can't really be certain how you've changed either one. I've done enough testing on my own system now to know I can easily be fooled without the instruments.
to add to all the drama...
i just added a wynn filter to my HF DC today and measured before and after amperage numbers. the readings fluttered from 8.9 to 9.3 with the stock felt filter atop, but held much more steady with the new filter at 9.7 to 9.75.
here comes the drama part. i bought my DC for 130 out the door, then add my separator(free) and my filter for 128 shipped, i'm at 258 and still have money left over for a new impeller and propper ducting.
but...if i had to do it over again, i would've probably been more patient and search craigslist longer, there are crazy deals out there for used grizzleys etc...i've seen 2hp 220v units with an upgraded filter and tons of misc ducting for as little as 250 bucks. now thats the way to go, i needed a DC asap however when i bought mine to save my lungs on an mdx(TOXIC) and my crappy HFDC did the trick, and now it definately performs better than new.
i also bought a bellmouth and am going to order a new impeller today. i also am going to take before and after amp readings of each mod since this is the easiest way to check for airflow increase(to get a rough idea of course). stay tuned
btw...polarys, if you have a part number for that impeller, im sure that would be beneficial towards all of us who have have the HF units. thanks
I agree, if the Rikon impeller unit fits on the HF Motor shaft and the HF housing allows enough clearance, if might be worth your money and efforts to install. Can you tweak things a bit by moving the impeller within the housing? Perhaps installing some spacers will give you optimal placement results. Along with your Thein unit, I would suggest adding a pleated filter to give your best bang for the buck. It's pricey considering what you've paid for the DC although will give you higher CFM w/ increased filter material and you will have better protection if you spec the filter correctly. What size hose are you using? Might be worth your time to move up to a 5" line, would give higher CFM results if the retrofitted Rikon impeller gives you the ability to push more air. Sounds interesting, good luck.
Keeps us posted.
Retrowood Quote from: DarthVader on November 15, 2011, 12:24:05 PM
btw...polarys, if you have a part number for that impeller, im sure that would be beneficial towards all of us who have have the HF units. thanks
update...the grizzly impeller is on its way, shipped out yesterday, should be here wednesday of next week. i'll be updating both the impeller and the separator at that time. i'll let you all know how it turns out.
btw, i called rikon to see about their impeller on the 2hp units, its only 11" in diameter so not much better than my 10 1/2" which is why i went with the grizzley. maybe thats why rikon's cfm is rated at 1250 as opposed to grizzly's 1550. hmm...
well its time for another update...and this time it is not all good. you can see in the pic how massive the Grizzly impeller is, and it is made very well. You can also see that unfortunately the vanes are the wrong direction.
(http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Rx700000/IMG_20111123_080614.jpg)
the biggest differance between these two impellers besides the obvious size differance is the weight. the Grizzley is probably around 3 times the weight of the harbor freight unit. so now to the bad news, the motor is just not up to the job of the extra weight and size of the impeller. It was drawing over 60 amps on startup with a max of 68! it would run for 5 seconds and start to accelerate but i couldnt keep it on long enough to see if the amperage would level out at an acceptable and stable range. this is running on a 20amp dedicated cicruit in my shop with nothing else running. i didnt feel comfortable switching to a 30amp circuit just to see if the amps would come down, i do have electrical experience being a contractor, and also called up my subcontractor electrician for advice and he advised against this idea as well. so now i am kinda stuck with this impeller as i just installed my weenie 10" impeller.
onto some good news though, i installed a bellmouth as did member "retired02" and i did notice a differance in performance. the amps also tell the same story, i was pulling 9.75 and am now pulling 12.1-12.5! quite an increase if you ask me.
i also altered the inlet of my unit, this might be part of the increase as well. i removed the metal inlet and switched to a plywood inlet on the squirel cage itself. nut the differance is i was able to round over the the edge with roundover bit, it basically made a bellmouth. pretty imteresting results if you ask me.
i'd be interested to see what a "stock" hf unit pulls in the amperage department with the stock 5" inlet and outlets since mine was upgraded to 6" up until the separator downsized to 5" just in case i ever needed to upgrade in the future.
thoughts/criticisms welcome.......
btw i have a grizzly impeller for sale at a discount if anyone can do something with it, hehe
Just looking at the picture of the impellers. Quite a difference in size there. I am curious which Grizzly unit (model number) that impeller is for?
Never mind, I found where you had listed the part number, and a google search brought up multiple Grizzly models that impeller is used on.
One thing I noticed is that it is used on the G1028Z2. Since that is listed as a 1-1/2 HP unit, it is interesting that your 2HP unit won't spin that impeller.
I kind of scanned through this post - it looks like the impeller is is made for a reversed rotation to the HF impeller. I seems it would not work anyways even if you were to reverse the rotation.
I'm interested in replacing my HF impeller also.
It also seems weird to me why Grizzly's 1.5 HP DC using the same impeller would not have the same problem. Were you testing this in open air?
Grizzly has an aluminum version of this impeller now Part# P1028Z2010V2 - IMPELLER 12-3/4" ALUMINUM V2.09.11
I wonder if the aluminum version is lighter, thereby reducing the startup current.
Did you have to make any modifications to make the impeller fit on the motor shaft or into the blower housing?
It was a bit of a pain to get the impeller to fit, especially because it didn't work afterward... I had to enlarge the the diameter of the hole for the shaft slightly using a drill press. I also had to open up the inlet to the blower housing and make it larger. It's obvious it wasn't meant to house such a large impeller once you open it up. Now I have a cool piece of wall art in my shop, I wonder if I can then it into a clock?...hmm
Scanning through this post I'm wondering why while everyone is trying to save money but no one is considering the life span of the motor. Replacing the impeller to a larger, heavier one will make the motor works harder, which will shorten its life span. Not to mention possibility of decrease in performance or trip the circuit if the impeller is much heavier than the original. Imagine using a motorcycle motor to run a car. I'm exaggerating but the idea is the same.
I didn't realize how much heavier the impeller was when I purchased the grizzly unit. Looking back I should've
Removed the HF impeller to get a weight and compare. The detailed info on the HF units is slim at best so I took a gamble. Hind sight is like that unfortunately. Now that the info is available, I can't imagine myself doing this again. I just look for deals on CL for a beefier unit. My new .02
Hi mickeyh,
Considering the price of the HF DC ($139 w/ coupon) I'm not too concerned w/ the longevity of the motor (I even have a spare 220v 2HP motor).
Theoretically, the HF's claim of a 2HP motor would mean that its capable of running at 20amps continuous duty so as long as it can get past its initial start up current, it "should" be okay.
To use a similar analogy, its like changing the gearing on your car to make it taller. It takes longer to get up to speed, but if you have the horsepower you can reach a higher top speed.
Someone mentioned that they used a Rikon impeller, but never gave the part number. Does anyone know how that conversion went?
Hello, I have a HF DC with the Rikon 12" impeller installed. If you contact Rikon service you can order it, the model of their DC is the 60-200 and the part reference is #22. This easily slipped right onto the motor shaft. I haven't been able to actually take any measurements on increase of amps, cfm etc at this time. I am working on getting the instruments to do so.
Just from the feel of the air movement and also noise level I would suspect that it is working better with the larger impeller.
Hope this is helpful.
Thanks,
John
Thanks JFurjanic!
Did you have any issues ordering it from Rikon? Someone mentioned that they started asking for serial numbers of the DC for liability purposes. I suppose I could always go to a local Woodcraft and just copy the S/N from one of their floor models, hehe.
How much was the rikon? I paid 139 for my HF unit + tax and the impeller was around 110 with shipping. So I paid more than some nicer used units on CL, Especially since I chopped up my unit after a couple of months to make a separator. I'm glad the rikon is working for you, I'd be interested in hearing more about your setup and amps pulled etc...
How did you get the HF unit for $139? They sell them for $199 here and the best coupon I've found so far is 25% off.
I got my coupon from one of the magazines, either wood magazine or this old house.
It looks like they upped the price since I bought it. Anyhow it also seems like ppl are selling these HF coupons on ebay too.
I found this by doing a google images search for "harbor freight coupon dust collector"
(http://images.kouponthis.com/wp-content/uploads/edd/2012/10/HF-97869.jpg)
I assume the Rikon impeller promises significant performance gains over the one that comes with the HF unit. Otherwise, isn't this a helluva lot of work to do?
ssotangkur, When I purchased the Rikon impeller they didn't ask me about a serial number but I have seen that others are being asked for it.
DarthVader, I believe it was about $70 delivered. Stay tuned I hope to be getting some data about the performance level from all my mods I have made to my DC.
Peter, with an increase from 9.75 to 12 inches I believe that the performance is substantial. Hopefully soon I wil be able to collect some data to show this.
Thanks,
John
I was told by rikon that the impellers are available in limited stock on their parts website.
rikonparts.com/product/60-200